Please submit your Seminary Teacher sagas in the box below. Tell us the stories you were afraid to tell your parents about.

I have heard a lot of really sick extreme doctrines come out of the mouths of local level church leaders, especially seminary teachers. I want to focus on seminary teachers (released time ST’s, aka CES employees) because;

1. I believe seminary age kids are at a very vulnerable age (14-18) in trying to define their religious beliefs.

2. Most 14-18 year olds don’t have enough knowledge to openly refute or question the doctrine being presented by the ST's.

3. Many ST’s decide to teach seminary because of extreme belief in Mormonism which often equals ‘extreme mormonism’.

4. Seminary teachers often will give their opinions on certain doctrine. Students often confuse these opinions with actual doctrine.

Here are a few comments made by my Seminary Teachers that I remember;

1. A woman should be able to find a way to satisfy all of her interests while staying at home. Any desires to pursue work or interests outside the home are unrighteous.

2. Once you find the right man that honors his priesthood, you will want to obey him and have him be the decision maker in your home.

3. Polygamy will be mandatory in the Celestial Kingdom.

4. Any woman that gets turned on by looking at nudity (including her dh) has become very loose in morals and this is unrighteous. Men get turned on by images while women get turned on by subtle things..like rubbing a button (20 years later I still haven’t figured this one out, but it really makes me wonder about this man’s wife!).

5. Girls should not be cheerleaders because the uniforms are immodest but it’s ok for boys to wear less modest clothing for other sports. (We had one seminary teacher that talked some of the girls into wearing sweat pants under their skirts on game days. It looked pretty stupid.)

6. The only way an unmarried pregnant girl can fully repent of her ‘sin’ was to give the baby up for adoption.

My experience with seminary - lightfingerlouie

It has been over 40 years since I had seminary, but I must give it credit. I learned so many stupid and silly things there that doubt was created. What I learned in seminary was just plain bizarre. Some of the stuff included

the streets of the Celestial Kingdom are paved in gold

people in the Celestial Kingdom wear white seamless smocks

Cain is Sasquatch

people--the lost tribes---live under the North Pole

there is a treasure room in Cumorah

God moves gold around in the earth

blood atonement is a divine punishment, and it will return

animal sacrifice will return

Peter killed Judas, to shed his blood

Joseph Smith's brother Alvin looked just like Adam

eating a big meal at Thanksgiving is a sin

Bruce McConkie had his "calling and election made sure"

Emma is going to hell

the earth will become a huge seer stone after it is cleansed by fire

This stuff is just nuts. And I listened, with a straight face, as it was taught. I cannot believe how crazy it all was.

Let's not forget - Mormon Observer

It is 'unwomanly' to study and "gasp" excell at any kind of martial Arts! God help a woman if she should ever learn to throw a solid punch!!!!

(not with standing IMO I just as soon duck and run and begone out of a bad situtation, but a good solid cast iron frying pan could adjust an attitude don't you think?)

Seminary flashbacks - Alexis

I went to seminary all four years of HS, this was in the late '80s/early '90s. And you're right, we were vulnerable and didn't have the knowledge or experience to refute or question. Unfortunately the internet was still in its infancy. While I think that our ST was basically a nice guy with good intentions, looking back he was quite the religious fanatic and taught us some pretty crazy things.

A few gems that our ST taught us:

Jesus is coming in the year 2000

Everyone should take at least one geology class because it will help us when we're gods and need to create planets of our own

The Beatles are actually a satanic cult (he "proved" this by writing on the dry erase board. "Look at the first letters -- LSD! Just like the drug!! They are under satan's influence!!")

Sleep deprivation - I Looooooove Sleep

Good god!! In what universe is it healthy for kids to wake up at 4:30 in the morning??? Do FARMERS for gosh sakes even wake up at that hour????

This is my big issue with seminary. That and it's cultish to push kids to take religion classes every morning for an hour before school.

This was the worst. - Moira

"Girls, if you are ever attacked sexually, fight until he kills you rather than lose your virginity."

Yup. Brother Halliday said that. Circa 1971.

Brother Hallihan had an effect - Berkeley

When I was in college, a girl in the student ward was raped. At Fast & Testimony meeting, several people "bore their testimonies" about her mistakes, and how it could have been avoided.

She killed herself. Br. Hallihan would be proud.

This happened in 1975, and in Berkeley, California. Yes, the bishop allowed the F&T meeting to focus on a girl who was a rape victim. The "mistake" she made was by confiding in Mormons after her attack.

By the way, that doctrine was taken seriously. In 1975, we knew enough about rape to shield victims, even back then.

What a tragedy! - Moira

It is mindboggling they would discuss her in F&T meeting. It sounds like the only couseling she received was through the "Priesthood". I am so sorry. So many abuses.

Spencer W Kimball also included that 'doctrine' in his "The Miracle of Forgiveness". - brefots

The head of the LDS Seminary was caught window peeking. - NotNow

Several girls in our small rural Mo town had seen a man looking in their windows. They told their Dads, and a neighborhood watch was set up to patrol at night. Sure enough, they caught the guy in the act....The Seminary Principal. Of course, it was kept hushed up as much as possible. His punishment for this from the "Church" was to be tranferred to BYU to teach. Seems like that would just give him "bigger and better views",

Yet another example of how the LDS cult REWARDS abuse. - forestpal

Teaching at BYU sounds like a PROMOTION to me.

The scout leaders that stormed into our house and roughed up my little boys have all been promoted up the ranks to Stake Pres, Mission Pres, Bishop, Stake Counselor.

Seminary made me disbelieve. Especially the story about the submarine full of animals, lighted by magic rocks. Many of the historical stories have changed since then. My seminary teacher (male) had a thing for Joseph Smith, and would often extol his physique, his fist-fighting prowess, his charisma, his many wives. He told us more about Joseph Smith than most Mormons ever knew.

At the end of every seminary, every day, our teacher would ask if we had any questions. My 2 friends and I would raise our hands, every day, and ask the same question every day, "Why can't women have the Priesthood?" The three of us made a pact to keep asking until we got an acceptable answer.

Yeah, the sleep deprivation was brutal. My abusive older brother would purposely play loud music and make a racket late at night, so I couldn't sleep. Seminary was just part of my overall childhood torture.

If you miss seminary, YOU WILL DIE! - Primus

When I was in HS, these kids from Bountiful went joyriding and died. Tragic, yes. However, the reason WHY they died as given by my Seminary teacher was that they were not where they were supposed to be. Instead of heading to their early seminary class like they were supposed to, they decided to go joyriding and had an accident

You need to be where your supposed to be. Now if they had died during first period, non-seminary time (which is probably when it actually happened, who knows) then he probably would have a FP-horror story to share.

Seminary crap - Bonnie the Builder

I was taught that it wasn't proper for a woman to excercise as she would become more attractive than her husband and make him feel inferior and that was unrighteous. It was also uncomely and very lesbian for a woman to work out or be interested in sports. Therefor after High School a woman was to immedately get married, pregant and stop hoping, dreaming etc, and be a silent slave to her husband and children for the rest of her life.

Oh, and be happy about it.

No joke.

My seminary teacher castigated girls for using curling irons and told us we'd go bald. - curling-iron-using anon girl with long hair down to her a**

If anyone is bald, I bet it's him. I still have all my 24-inch-long hair.

On a happier note. - alscai

My daughter is 15, and has had 1.5 years of seminary. She always expressed very positive feelings about tscc (The So Called Church), even though I like to think we encouraged critical thinking.

When we abruptly told the kids in October (08) that we'd decided it was all a fraud, she said "No, it's not!!" Well, 3 months later, she's bailed on seminary, was extremely bothered by what she was hearing before leaving, and thought that the South Park episode on the Mormons was hilarious.

She's a smart kid.

I attended early morning seminary in Arvada, Colorado, in the mid-1970s. My teacher, Sister F, claimed to be psychic and have visions. She talked about them regularly, perhaps even daily. I remember doubting her stories and wondering if she wasn't possibly, you know, under the influence (of Satan).

The only one I recall specifically is one she told while driving one or two other kids and me from seminary, which was held at the ward chapel, to school. One of us had brought a black spirit, entity, demon, or whatever she called it into class. She wouldn't say who, but I was sure it was either me or this other kid, R.

R and I were generally known to be the "bad" kids in the ward, you know, the ones who get summoned to the Bishop's office for confidential interviews that somehow become public knowledge. I might have thought the Bishop was psychic, too, if I hadn't seen his and his First Counselor's wives, unfortunately, too late, at the Dairy Queen, where they spotted me smoking with other girls known for "skipping classes and going in cars with boys." (That was a separate snitch sitch or run-in with the rat culture, do you have a page for those? I could give you a good start on one.)

Back to Sister F and the huge scary black evil spirit. It accompanied one of us in the door, but of course only she could see it because of her "special gifts." It might have been Satan himself, it was so fearsome. She trembled and prayed with all her might until it went away.

I've always wondered why Sister F didn't get in trouble for telling her looney tales. Why weren't all the parents in an uproar, like the time she asked me to bring some "anti-Mormon" literature for discussion in class? It wasn't like it was Sister F's own husband, Brother F, who got me the job working for the guy who gave it to me or anything. Of course the other parents blamed me and called my parents, and I don't remember receiving an apology from this "flippin" psycho.

Then there was the time I got drunk at the office Christmas party and this guy Jerry, despite his promise not to, blabbed to Brother F. Actually, it was after the party and Jerry could be said to have gotten me drunk, in private. Brother F didn't seem at all concerned with Jerry's behavior or our respective ages (17 and 32). He was only concerned with my salvation. He confronted me, bawling like a baby.

You'd cry, too, if your wife was clinically insane. At least they didn't report me to Bishop "I Know You've been Smoking" B ... as far as I know.

I left the Church officially when I was 18, however in my mind, body, and soul I really had left when I was 16. So the seminary teachers had one good year with me. Then when I started thinking for myself and debating with them things didn't go over well.

My junior year I had verbally started to argue the validity of many of the moral policies of the Church. By senior year, after studying theology heavily day and night for three years, I began to question their concept of God, salvation, and eternal marriage in addition to their moral philosophies.

I made no secret of that either. I openly debated with my teachers. I had about three class periods where I wasted the entire time arguing. Once over tattoos and piercings and the double standard of allowing women to have piercings in their ears because of American culture, but not allowing people of Indian culture to have their noses pierced or bindi. Once over the differences between the OT temple and the Mormon temples, and once over how I believed it was impossible for God to have a body.

It got so frustrating that I stopped going the last two months of Senior year. I refused to attend seminary graduation much to my mothers disappointment.

About the only thing I accomplished in seminary was getting one of the teachers fired. He gave a lesson on the Quakers complete with him pretending he had epilepsy mimicing the quaking they used to do. He had us write a paper on the evils of their doctrine and completed the lesson with calling them a cult with brainwashed members. I wish I were making that up. I reported him to the seminary principal and he was gone in a week.

Then they had the missionaries come to teach us about how to convert our friends. Oh, God! I was livid. They said it was our responsibility to try to convert our friends. Then they had us fill out papers with our friends who weren't Mormon so they could go contact them. I tore up the paper, wrote blasphemy on every shred of it, then through it in the garbage in front of them all.

I guess I shouldn't be shocked I am on a blacklist now that I think about it.

Seminary Teacher Horror Stories Chapter 1: Two-Thirds of the School Wearing "I'M A MORMON" T-Shirts!

I attended a very small high school in a very small town in Southern Idaho. It has grown a little since that time, but my graduating class included 41 students. We had release-time Seminary. About 70% of the students were Mormon, so Seminary was well attended. Some of the non-Mormon kids signed up too.

In my Freshman year, we had a teacher who was looking to move on. Seminary was pretty low-key. Starting my sophomore year, we had a new teacher who was really gung-ho about leading us all down the paths of righteousness. He imposed all kinds of structure on our seminary cirriculum. I generally like the guy, but resisted a lot of his efforts to let Seminary define my whole high school experience.

During my junior year, we were studying the Book of Mormon. A part of our theme, he taught us all a cute song about reading the Book of Mormon, sung to the tune of the old Dr. Pepper commercial. To reinforce this, he ordered t-shirts for everyone who was willing to pay the ten bucks or so to cover his costs. Most of the students were happy to oblige. I even ordered one myself. At length, the time arrived for us to obtain the t-shirts. Everyone picked up their t-shirts at Seminary one day, and made plans to wear them to school the next day.

I've always had a contrarian streak in me, so I consciously decided not to wear my t-shirt the next day. I've felt good about that decision ever since. The next day at school, at least 100 out of 160 students showed up in t-shirts with huge, bold, upper-case letters on the front that read:

I'M A
MORMON!

On the back, in letters that were almost as big, the shirt read:

WOULDN'T YOU LIKE
TO BE A
MORMON TOO?

You can imagine the warm fuzzies the 30% non-Mormon students were feeling that day. My mother was slightly less orthodox in those days, and she was horrified when she learned about the t-shirts and their instant proliferation at the school. A lot of Mormon students and teachers also realized pretty quickly that this was a really tacky display.

To his credit, the Seminary teacher acknowledged to everyone that he may not have thought out the idea as thoroughly as he should have done. He explained that he wore a t-shirt like that in high school, and that a lot of good missionary discussions resulted from it. Of course, he had to qualify that by telling us that he and his siblings were the only Mormons attending his high school, out of a couple thousand students.

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school it's a wonder I can think at all" - Paul Simon

Okay so last year was my junior year in high school. I had gone to seminary every year before but this year we had our teacher switched on us like 5 times. The last and final teacher was named Brother Fisher and he reminded me of wayne newton, but anyways, he said something that offended me so badly one day. My mom is a democrat and so partly from my beliefs and partly from my mom's, i am too a democrat. So i ddon't know how the subject got brought up but before i knew it, Bro. Fisher said "Democrats can not be good mormons." I flipped argued a little bit then decided it wasn't worth it and so i left like 30 minutes before class was over. i went and told my mom and she called the seminary teacher and the next day he apologized to the class... all i can say is that i'm glad that he was only our teacher for another week or so.- 09/26/2004- Anonymous

About a year and a half or so ago I heard that the local institute teacher had taught that because of adoption into the house of Israel, peoples' DNA changes as a consequence of baptism.

Well, I decided this was nonsense, and called him to tell him so. I told him that of all the people I baptized while serving in Africa, not one of them changed their skin colour, to resemble that of a jewish person.

He later apologized to the class. It's scary what the CES does when left unchecked.

I was 16 years Old. Long time ago...I didn't graduate from seminary and I didn't care about it. This last teacher that I supposed to have made War and Hate towards me. She came to talk to me the second Sunday asking for information about my abscence in the Seminary class.

I told her that I was busy (I really was). She replied back saying if I had a baby or a family to take care, "you must be a poor, a single mom who doesn't have time to come to seminary", she said.

She called me day and night. Bugged my friends (non-mormons but she knew a few of them), called my YW president and asked her to don't graduate me from the YW program (which I did), she talk to the bishop about how bad I was and I did this bad pranks to her, etc.

My father got upset and concerned. The whole ward new about this problem; as well, the whole stake. Everyone seemed to love this wicked witch Seminar teacher and most people didn't even talk to my family for that. 4 months this torture elapsed. One day

I had an interview with the Bishop and Stake President to know what was happening. (I wondered why it took them this long) Anyway, my mother was with me, I explained the situation and my mom said: I heard everything what this woman said to my daughter, She is not a single mother and be accused sinner for to attending seminary... Sisters "Nice So and SO" were also there".

Next Sunday, I got the final interview with the bishop and I was informed that I was graduating from Seminary. I didn't know about it, but my bishop filled the forms and he really wanted me to be there. I asked him to don't do it, but it was late. I went to the Seminary Building. The teacher was there, she come to me and said "What are you doing here?" I said "I am coming to the Seminary Graduation". She yelled "Out , OUT you are not graduating and you don't deserve to be here" my mom pushed her and we went inside.

She screamed, cried and called the bishop and stake president. She asked to close the doors and don't let me in. I, felt bad, I put on the floor all the books with a big note "See ya in Hell Bitch" and I walked out. After that insident I left the church and a year later I asked to remove my name. Just recently I heard that Mrs Seminary Wicked Witch moved away and got pychiatric aid. I thought it was about me, and the truth is different, "she was in love with me" and that's why she hated me so much. Her husband divorced her and her only Son became incative and gay...

PS: watch out for your seminary teachers. They are not like they seem to be!

Back in the seventies I had a seminary teacher who said that anyone failing to live chastely would be resurrected without genitals, this happened to be in Provo. I'd think naughty thoughts like "Let levity garnish thy thoughts increasingly." and wonder why nobody had made a campy porn parody called "Johnny Lingus".

For those who want to rekindle their passion for Tom Trails film strips, I found a web site dedicated to good old Tom Trails. No kidding.

You can actually watch some of your favorite episodes online.

My seminary teacher always got annoyed when we made fun of film strips by asking him if we were going to watch another strip film.

Bullet-proof Hair Sister came in chewing gum like a cow and offered some to all the BOYS. Most said yes. She took the wad out of her mouth and offered it to them. When they declined to accept her aBC gum, she told them that if they kissed girls who had already been kissed, ABC gum was basically what they were getting.

I have trouble with this on so many levels that I have never even begun to analyze it.

My seminary teacher used a Native American student for Lamanite show-and-tell. I attended release time seminary in the early 80's. We had a Native American kid in our class who was living with a local Mormon family as part of the Lamanite placement program.

One day, our teacher taught us about the prophecy in the Book of Mormon that the Lamanites would become a "pure (formerly 'white') and delightsome" people. He then had this poor Native American kid come up in front of the group and tell us all that since he had been living with this Mormon family and coming to seminary, his skin had been getting lighter.

In a rather small northern Utah town there were several reports of a "peeping Tom" going around town looking in the bedroom windows of teen age girls. There were so many reports that a neighborhood watch was set up.Fathers were doing "stake-outs" around town. Surprise! The principal of the high school LDS seminary was caught in the act of looking in a girl's window. Talk about a scandal! And the kicker is---this guy was not fired from the LDS seminary system---He was transferred to teach Institute at BYU. This happened several years ago, and it still boggles my mind.

I am an early morning student. I get up at 4:50 every morning! Yeah it is great and it helps me stay awake for school. I love Seminary it is why i wake up in the morning. Ok but this one year i had this teacher that had been teaching seminary a little to long. She was one of my best friend grandmas and she was her moms teacher.

To put it in a nice way she couldn't see, hear, or smell so she was really old. And this sister would make things up at the top of her head. one day around christmas time we were talking about how Jesus came about and my teacher said that Mary went up to heaven and had sex with God to get Baby Jesus. the whole class was amazed and laughed and just passed it along because we knew the truth. that is a seminary teacher that needed to retire a long time ago.

If I center my life on Jesus and his teachings, when the rains of discouragement, ridicule, hard times, unpopularity, and rejection enter my life, I will have the strength to deal with them.

In that 45 minutes before school every day I have come to realize the truth of the gospel, the importance of the commandments, and the love that our Savior has for us....I have gained something much more priceless than a few more hours of sleep.

Don't go to seminary for yourself. Go to do the Lords will and to keep his commandments by doing as the prophet says. It may be difficult, with your teacher and other things, but you struggle so you can grow from the experience. The Lord will bless you.

Don't ask what seminary can do for you, but what you can do for seminary, No matter the trial.

Early morning seminary is GREAT!!!! It is the perfect way to start a crappy day of school. While it is early in the morning, if you are disciplined enough, you can make it through the day, your homework, your scripture reading, and still go to bed early!

All of my seminary teachers are great. No, they aren't professional teachers with lots of training, but they are in tune to what Heavenly Father wants us to learn. My seminary teacher now is awesome. She is so knowledgeable about the scriptures and the history that lay behind them!

I LOVE SEMINARY :)

I love my seminary teacher. He tought me alot and I know he cares about me. He wakes up every day at 4:30am, drops his wife her parents house so she can get her education, then he teaches from 6-7am, then goes to work one hour away. I'm sorry that the people that are writting have had a bad experience with their teacher, but not everyone is bad, and not everyone is good. I'm lucky, I had one of the good ones.

I was raised in a thinking and studious TBM Mormon family after the manner of Lowell Bennion. These kind of families are rare today. I was so excited to finally get to go to Seminary. The first day the teacher asked if any of us could name the 7 dispensations of time? My hand shot up and I rattled off the McKonkie version which was the one I correctly assumed was in his manual. And then I pointed out that other previous church leaders had a slightly different list and mentioned them specifically.

I asked him if he had any insights as to why there was this subtle change in this doctrine and how it might relate to changing perspectives on the nearness of the millenium? He just stood there all amazed and I suddenly realized that Seminary had NOTHING to teach me.

I was eventually dismissed for "asking too many disruptive questions." This was way before I had ever even hear of any of the most difficult questions. For many months we had an unspoken agreement, as long as I didn't show up he would mark me present since I already knew the material anyway and this would keep everybody happy.

The seminary program, far from attempting to enlighten the youth, ferrets out the budding intellectuals and either suppresses their thinking or drives them down the road of apostasy at an early stage. Which for me was probably a good thing.

I believe that if the Church Educational Department had employed more Lowell Bennion type of teachers and fewer Bruce Mckonkie type of teachers over the last 30 years, that your website would have far fewer patrons.

"Brother Woods", my seminary teacher in 1978 at Clearfield High (in Utah) was a pretty nice guy but totally loopy in some areas.

I still remember with shock and horror the story he told us one time about a Navajo woman who converted to the LSD Faith. He claimed to know her personally (but I doubt this) and he solemnly testified to us, with tears running down his cheeks, that the longer she stayed active in that church, the whiter her skin, the blonder her hair, and the bluer her eyes became until after several years, no one knew she was a Navajo anymore! I kid you not. What racist bullshit to shove down the throats of gullible teens in the guise of spirituality! Damn.

Hey...well I'm 14 and I started seminary this year. It starts at 6:30 and ends at 7:15. I have to drive a half hour to get to seminary and a half hour back. My seminary teacher's always in a crummy crummy mood, she yells at me when I don't answer question because im practically falling asleep in class. Everyone else lives about 10 mins away from the church while i live a half hour away. I get so tired of her yelling at me but my parents still force me to go. I skipped class once or twice and she tells the bishop so i have to go through this whole ordeal how i need to gain a testimony through seminary but how am i supposed to when i can hardly stay awake? :(

I wonder why LDS puts down the idea of higher education when it comes to biblical studies, but likes to give the allusion that it's young attend some advance school called seminary. When most people think of seminary they are thinking of graduate level studies which require the completion of 4 years of college before attending.

The reality is LDS seminary is the equivalent of a basic Sunday school or Catechism class taught by lay teachers from workbooks or prepared lesson plans. Not that there is anything wrong with lay people teaching, but calling it seminary almost seems like LDS has an inferiority complex.

Another interesting point is the material taught by these lay teachers was written by lay people who like the teachers have little or no formal education in the subjects they teach. This could explain why LDS is able to perpetuate the idea that its leaders actual know something about the Bible, church history, biblical archeology, and Christian theology, because no one in the chain from prophet to 9th grader has actual studied these subjects with any degree of accuracy.

I think the proverb "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" has served LDS well.

On my summer mission (of 2002) to Utah I took Institute classes at Ogden (next to Weber State).

One of my teachers (in approx. his fourties), who taught an introductory course on the Book of Mormon, and I were friendly, and were able to discuss our beliefs after class.

Finding out that I was a Protestant Christian, I kid you not, he sincerely asked, "So, do Protestants believe in the after-life?"

my seminary teacher used to call me and say stupid things like, i'm gonna buy donuts for fridays class, you should come, then after i didnt, she told me she would get me donuts every day. it was gimpy.

Every time I went to my ICT lesson she would shout at she made me feel so small and stupid. One time I went into my lesson and she had a right go at me for going to my chair, then I sat down. Then she told me to get up so I stood. I was so completely incensed.

She started her usual rant and rave when my friend Nat started to pull faces behind her back. I could not help but laugh then she sent me out of the room. I had to stand out side for the whole hour of the lesson, my legs were hurting. Then when the lesson had finished everybody had gone she called me back into the room and all she did was tell me to go to my next lesson.AFTER ALL OF THAT.

She made me feel so small in front of all of my friends. Being a somewhat heavy kid in high school. My seminary teacher decided he was going to help me out. He started a latter day diet program for the seminary class. He would make me get up in front of the class and get on the scale, as he told the entire class my weight every two weeks. This really made me want to keep attending seminary, yeah right. A couple of months later he decided that it was necessary for him to read our palms and tell us our future in class. So we spent a whole week listening to the idiot read our palms. I wish I would have applied my release time seminary class period to a real class that would actually teach me something.

My ward, far removed from Utah, cuts across a wide range of economic conditions. The public schools are uniformly terrible and getting worse every year. Many are extremely violent and there are large high schools in this city with a murder rate among their studentbody, (usually off campus) higher than that of the entire state of Idaho. The rich members of the ward send their kids to private schools. All the private schools are operated by other churches and tuition runs around 10 to 20 thousand dollars per kid per year. Which is more than tithing for most Mormon families. Private schools run by other churches generally require some instruction in the doctrines of the Christian faith, usually slanted in their direction.

About the only kids who get high enough scores on the SAT test to go to BYU attended private schools. The kids from the public schools seldom score high enough and end up going to the local state schools where their chances of meeting and marrying another Mormon is slim. Tuition at state schools here and in Utah (in-state residents only) is now about the same as at BYU, around $1500 a semester. Tuition at other large private universities runs at least 10 times that at BYU. So it is no longer direct economics that keeps people out of the BYU. But academics, beneath which is the mega-economics of not being able to afford to send your kids to a private secondary school run by other churches even if you don't pay tithing. This is coupled with the necessity of having to live in a big urban area with bad schools in order to escape the third world economy of Utah. (The economic mess in Utah is directly related to the enormous past birth rate more than any other factor, and this can be layed entirely at the feet of the Mormon church.) This correlation between private secondary education and attendance at BYU is not 100%, there are exceptions. But they are becoming very rare.

Early morning Seminary keeps the kids so tired that they can't think. They sleep physically and/or mentally through all lectures on religion. Perhaps if diligent Mormon students didn't go to early morning Seminary, but instead they payed better attention in class the rest of the day, they might score higher on their SAT test. But we don't have any students in that catagory: in the public schools, want to go to a good college and don't go to Seminary.

I recently substitute taught a high school age Sunday School class. The lesson was on Isaiah and I couldn't resist not telling them about the problem of Deutero-Isaiah. They slept right through it. Minds completely out of gear, unable to comprehend why this might be a problem. Not the least bit concerned. Amazing.

Public schools tend to start about the same time each morning. But private schools tend to start earlier and at more of a variety of times and they tend to be further away. So everyone has to get up even earlier for Seminary to accomodate the private school students. So everyone is even more tired and incapable of real thought. Sleep deprivation, the most basic tool of brain-washing.

If we actually converted (fat chance) everyone in this city, they'd close down all these expensive private schools and then none of our kids could get into BYU. I guess theoretically, they'd all stop shooting at their school teachers. They would meet and marry each other at the supposedly much improved local state schools. Dream on. I wonder if the church leaders think about these things when they are making decisions about how to spend the billions of tithing and other church revenue that we give to them?

In my humble opinion the church needs to start building secondary schools, basically expand the Church Educational System, instead of building so many temples. The temples are focused on the work for the dead. The church leaders, with an average age of about 85 years old and one foot in the grave in most cases, feel more closely connected to their dead ancestors than to their own living great-grandchildren and the young families living thousands of miles away from Utah. Of course, it makes perfect sense to them to selfishly build 50 new temples (at how many million a pop?) while those some 80 years younger than them languish in the hellish public schools with little future ahead either in the church or out.

When it comes to Seminary, it is more of what they are not doing than what they are doing that is so hellish. I think this also explains the relative paucity of responses to this section of your otherwise hilarious and insightful website.

Throw in the idea that the Book of Abraham claims that all the Egyptian Pharoahs were descended from Ham. Stir in the observation that Joseph, father of Ephraim and Molasses was married to an Egyptian Princess. Top it with the Claim of Joseph Smith that he was a direct and literal descendant of Ephraim. Conclusion: Joseph Smith had African heritage along with 2 of the 12 tribes of Israel, (not counting the fact that they all intermarried) and was thereby inelligible to hold the Priesthood,(before 1978). Now there was a question that caused my Seminary Teacher to almost put me in the box and send me to Salt Lake for a cheerful visit with David O.

In 1980, in my seminary class, I brought to the seminary teacher some questions concerning the Reverend Soloman Spaulding being the author of the book of mormon. In the LA times an article by Wayne Cowdery claimed that this was the source. I had other questions pertaining to the book of mormon, especially why was the book of mormon written so similar to the bible in 1830 US, especially since the americans did not speak King James (1500's) english. Another question was why Shakespeare was used in the book of mormon.

I was reprimmanded for reading what the seminary teacher considered anti-mormon literature. He explained that the spirit converts and he bore his testimony. I explained that the source of the Soloman Spaulding being Bof M was the newspaper! The next class was dedicated to writing our testimonies on pieces of paper and putting them in a shoe box and sending them to President Kimball. It was explained that the testimonies written by the "youth" would make President Kimball feel so good.

After the class put the testimonies in the box we were rewarded with doughnuts. Looking back at that experience the doughnuts were used as positive reinforcement similar to giving pavloff the dog dog food for coming to the ring of the bell. In other words, the doughnuts were used to brainwash.

My cousin teaches seminary. He inherited several sections of choice farm land, but does he farm it? No, he teaches seminary. He had an excellent offer to work for a company back East for a six figure salary. Did he take the job? No, he teaches seminary. He married a beautiful woman and they have twelve children and she still has a great figure. But he still teaches seminary.

I know why he teaches seminary. He likes the high school girls. He is tall and has rugged good looks. They all probably have crushes on him and he is flattered by it. I don't really think he practices the laying on of hands or the gift of tongues with any of these little girls. But I bet he likes their swooning attention and I think he gets a kick out of teaching them about the law of chastity. Its pretty sick when you think about it.

So my seminary teacher is crazy and one day he pulled me aside after class and said that that Satan is taking over me and he is "getting to me" I left very angry that day.

To make matters worse he called me out again after class and said; "Is there something you aren't telling me, or is there something that you want to confess" and I was like "uh no I don't think so..."

I'm not the best Mormon...Okay and I do like going and getting drunk and high on the weekends but I'm not going to tell him a single thing. Now I hate seminary and dread going. The only reason I go now is for good WiFi. God, are you fucking kidding? - 04/16/2015 - Emily

I am attending Davis high seminary in kaysville utah this year and it is my senior year.i. do. not. like. it. and its not that im against the church, my family is lds and my brothers all served a mission, but seminary is useless to me. i understand people want to be close with the lord. listen to me, you will NOT go to hell for not going to seminary. that is bull. i believe that you can love god by being a good person. everyone makes mistakes but as long as your close with god i believe you will be fine. dont let people make you feel bad for the mistakes youve made. i do not respect the concept of going to your bishop to fully repent.WHAT!!! how do i know if he is a pervert or not? if guys cant control their thoughts when we are immodest or if we do bad things why do GUYS get the priesthood? and why do we need to tell GUYS about our sins?they cant control where their minds wonder so.. no thanks ill keep that between me and god. i also feel many of us ARE pressured into doing the "right thing" and serving a mission. i know soooo many people at my school serving missions. they are the LAST person that i would want teaching my family or others about doing whats right. i know religion isnt based on the people just based on the principals and teaching, but lets be honest..the rules and all are just as bad as the people, if not worse. - 02/02/2012 - noneyobiz

I wasnt a "valiant" seminary student. I didnt go all the time...i did graduate, but i never felt like the teachers didnt want me to get higher education in religion. they encouraged us, me, to read the bible...to read the book of mormon to find out if its the word of God.

I was still ignorant to religion after i graduated. but now its easy to be open minded to all religions and embrass the truths they all have. its easy to knock on a program when you've been embarrassed or affended by it once or twice. who hasn't been embarassed publicly? time to get over it.

mormons arent the only ones who have hard to believe stories to tell, lots of other christians have hard to believe encounters with Jesus or Angels. Dont deny Gods Power! I believe any insitution that has youth read the Word of God should be honored and valid. we can get strength from all christian doctrine and should unite as christians!! Jesus is our Lord, not the arm of flesh. - 11/15/2009 - krazyk

dude, your a perv.

and to everybody else who is speaking nasty status... C'mon! its obvious that you arent connected to the spirit with all your slander. im going on my mission in a few weeks, and have been praying and reading scriptures everyday. There is no substitute for how happy being clean makes me. It's at time when i totally ignore my spiritual responsibilities that i can talk all kinds of garbage like you guys. Your all getting bogged down by the deep doctrines, when you probly cant even handle the basics. sorry if i seems harsh, but you people are outta line. 10/28/2009 - Eaton

YOu Guys are idiots and have know clue what your talking about. I'am sorry you all didnt have the same experience as i did. seminary is AWESOME!!! the church is true. all of gods mysteries may seem bizzare to you because your looking at it in the wrong perspective. one day when you see his plan how he sees it, everything will all make sense and even then will Heavenly Father love you still and rejoice that you understand now. - 06/27/2009 - Weston Swanson

I'm 14 and I take seminary as a release time class at my school in davis county utah. In the beginning of the year I was always sick and therefore I always stayed home from school. My seminary teacher, Brother Jhonson, didn't like this idea and told the class that I was going to hell because I do not attend gthe lords class. As you would assume when I found out a was just a little pissed that he would say such a thing. One day after I had been absent for about 3 days I got to class and he had changed my seat from the very back corner to the front and center row... this made me a little more than angry considering he had said that I was going to go to hell. Before I found out about this I had been only a little against going to seminary, once I found out about this I decided that if i'm already going to hell I might have fun with it. :) So I went to class one day in a shirt that was a little too revealing and a skirt that by some peoples opinion showed my lower checks if ya get my drift. And that son of a female dog had the balls to tell me that if I didn't start going to class he was gonna call my mom. I told him to go right ahead and he did so... he only mentioned that I had missed 2 days (which my mom knew about) she just rolled her eyes got off the phone and called him a sinful word. It has been a month since I've gone to seminary, I have about 8 days of school left and don't plan to go at all for the rest of the year. I would like him to know why I do this but I'm afraid that if I go he will give me worksheets for all my make up work. (I didn't even know we had makeup work in seminary) I'm just happy he has yet to call my mom and tell her I NEVER go. From what I hear he talks about my sinful ways a lot, not that I care, and he says I don't get my necklace (who freaking cares? Its a chain with a charm that says mosiah in hebrew, whopty freaking dew) I wonder if my parents will notice that I don't have it?? - 05/25/2009 - screw you brother J

Too many people here forget that no matter what any seminary or other teacher in church says, you can always take the matter to the Lord in prayer to know if what they are telling you is true. Our church leaders have often counseled us to do so.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:5

Secondly, Seminary teachers aren't general authorities in the church, just Seminary teachers and also human. They make mistakes too, you know, like we ALL do.

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive and ye shall be forgiven." Luke 6:37 - 01/13/2009 - guest poster

This list seems more like the exception than the common experience for must seminary students. Overall, I had a great experience in seminary. My teachers were human and weren't perfect, but who is? I think the criticism is a little unrealistic. I say cut the seminary teacher's some slack. Most of them do the best they can. They do what they do because they truly love to help young people come to understand who they are and what their potential is. They give up a lot of their time for very little compensation. I'm really grateful for the teachers I had and the sacrifice they made to help me. - 12/05/2008 - GRT

welp, as a former high school seminary teacher (BOM, OT,& D&C/Church History) and a convert student (in a class of 3 kids) I had wonderful memories!

As a student: Sister Butler was from England, a convert and she had the coolest accent and mannerisms~I was always late handing in my assignment book, those days, in the mid 80's in NY, you met 1x a week and were suppose to get up early each morning to do your own lesson (how'bout that westerners:) Well, of course taking junior/senior years in one (graduating a year early from HS) I used every excuse to tell sis B that I really had little/no time to do the HW, well, she decided to invite me over to dinner each week (she drove me to seminary each week in the evening anyway) and really kindly and lovingly encouraged me to do the work~my family moved to a new area during this time and I was blessed to live with the Butlers my last year of school, so every morning SIs butler would wake me up at 6am, and if I tried to go back asleep she would say "ok Darling, up and at 'em! lets get going, open your booklet! My room was upstairs, I could not fool this good sister, so I finally started doing the daily work, so I could finish early and sleep for 10 min before catching the bus to take my double coursework at school...I am grateful to her because I soon became an excellent Church Historian which led to my being a seminary teacher in Arizona~

Seminary Teacher~ I was blessed to have a wonderful class, we had so much fun that non-members (5) and inactive youth (3) started attending, we had something called "mormon bucks" that I started with paper money I found at deseret book store in a game, and we had scripture competitions etc. 2 weeks ago I saw 2 of my boys in SLC and I cried when they came up to me and said "hi sister ___ !! It was so great to see them after all these years...for those of you who had a less than good time in seminary, I am sorry you missed out..BTW I am hooked on the Tom Trails series! I've never heard of that one (I was born around then:) but thank you to the soul who shared the linked, as a jewish/native american I though it was funny and very classic!

Kittywaymo...PS, Come on... admit it, don't you miss CHurch just a little? It is the best! - 04/22/2007 - kittywaymo