02/26/2010 - by nohinckster and others from Recovery from Mormonism
For those of you who don't believe in Santa Claus you'll have to crawl under or over or around "The Night Before Christmas".
For those who don't get this here is what Holland blurted from the pulpit at the last General Conference.
"If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived; and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit."
Crushed it - by outofutah
We stepped on it crushed it, spat on it and oh boy it feel wonderful!
Crawl? I drop-kicked the damn book. - by Don Bagley
Did he say 531 pages? Well, that changes everything! - by Gorspel Dacktrin
For some reason I was thinking that it was less than 500 pages and that's why I thought nothing of rejecting the Church and the Book of Mormon. But if it actually has 531 pages, I may have to reconsider the direction my life has taken. To be honest, I can't account for the origin of those pages either. I have no idea where the paper came from. How could I have so cavalierly thrown away my testimony, without taking into account the fact that I couldn't account for the origin of those pages. I have been a fool!
I have to also confess that I have deceived myself. I knew that there was Semitic complexity, but I dishonestly refused to acknowledge it. There was a lady who did a fancy dance in exchange for a promised beheading of an enemy. That's exactly the kind of Semitic complexity you can find in the Bible. But I refused to respect it for the complex Semiticality that it really was.
As Brother Holland suggests, it really is about a lot of accounting, and for those of us who blithely reject our obligation to pay tithing as a result of our rejection of the Book of Mormon, there are some accounting issues that need to be faced.
But one thing that I don't quite understand yet is why anyone would have to crawl over or under or around the Book of Mormon in order to make an exit. I just threw it in the trash and took off on my bike. No crawling. The Book isn't even that big. If you tried to crawl under it, well, wouldn't you look kind of stupid? What kind of person tries to crawl under an ordinary-sized book??
I think Holland has been in Holland, enjoying some of those brownies in Amsterdam.
531 pages? Well - by alscai
Well, yes, the Bible also, admittedly has Semitic complexity. But, ask yourself, it is....TEEMING with Semitic complexity? I challenge you to find anywhere in the Bible where its complexity teems as the BoM teems.
Teeming nature of the Semitic complexity by Gorspel Dacktrin
I was afraid to even contemplate the teeming nature of the Semitic complexity in the Book of Mormon.
It's bad enough that I can't account for the origin of the pages and the fact that each copy has more than 500 pages. The fact that I walked away from the teeming Semitic complexity could be enough for God to place me with the sons of perdition--with no hope of repentance.
I once walked away from a motel that had a teeming rodent infestation complexity, and I just assumed that I could just as easily walk away from a book that had a teeming literary and Semitic complexity. According to Holland, however, that doesn't seem to be the case. ;o)
happy to see - by Benjamin Luther
Is that Semetic complexity teeming in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?
Shakespeare - by testiphony
I don't understand how Shakespeare wrote what he wrote, does that mean God did it?
A drive through - by iBear
LOL..."crawling over or under or around"? You could drive a semi through the holes in the BoM!
A veritable giant slalom - by Lovechild
Dear Elder Holland, crawling over, under, around and through those 531 pages was a veritable giant slalom of 1285 repetitions of "and it came to pass"es; Therefore it must needs come to pass"es; "Wherefore it did comes to pass"es; ""Wherefore. my beloved brethren"; "And again, I say unto to you"es.
And those were the GOOD parts !!
Wherefore I must needs say unto you, Jeffrey, "I hope that you and that stinking corporate excuse for a church you represent "come to pass" by sinking very publicly in a sea of red ink."
Impressed by length - by Don Bagely
I might be impressed by the length of the Book of Mormon if I'd never read Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, or Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy, or James Joyce's "Ulysses," or E.E. Doc Smith's "Lensman" series, or Philip Jose Farmer's "Riverworld," series, or Tom Clancy's Jack Ryan series, or the work of that demented janitor who wrote a fifteen thousand page opus called "Realms of the Unreal."
There's nothing outstanding about the Book of Mormon. It's a pedestrian work.
The length of the Book of Mormon - by AxelDC
I heard a quote that most LDS homes only have 5 books, including the Book of Mormon, and all of them go unread.
Anyone who thinks that the BofM is such an amazing piece of literature really needs to get a library card.
Abandon the Book of Abraham - by Healed
If one must crawl over or under or around the BoM to make an exit, what would one have to do to abandon the the BofA? Hmmmm.....
657 pages - by Shummy
Ummm, lets's see. There should have been 647 pages but the first 116 have gone missing.
What a shame, that would have been more fun crawling over an even bigger book.
wiped my ass with the Book of Mormon - by Beavis Christ
I took a shit and wiped my ass with the Book of Mormon.
Luckily it was with one of those tissue-thin page versions.
You just keep on saying that, Jeffrey! - by Nephi The Endowed
Forcing belief in the BOM is the only thing keeping Brother Holland flying first class, living in a luxurious mansion, and having a chauffeur-driven town car.
The moment we all collectively stop marveling at the pretend Semitic complexity and it's not-so-original origin, is the moment these church leaders will have to find a new source of income.
They will say anything and everything in order to keep their privilege.
Taking on Holland - by AxelDC
I'd like to deconstruct Holland's argument, without his red-faced hysteria:
> "If anyone is foolish enough or misled enough to reject 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text teeming with literary and Semitic complexity without honestly attempting to account for the origin of those pages."
Funny that Bro. Holland doesn't embrace the Koran, because it easily fits this same description (just alter the page numbers).
>—especially without accounting for their powerful witness of Jesus Christ
This is very overblown. The book barely mentions Jesus, except for his visit, and there is no more evidence that Jesus actually existed based on this book than the Bros. Karamazov, which also has an account (albeit Dostoevsky openly admits its fictional) of Jesus returning to Inquisition Spain.
Because there is no evidence for the BofM, its tales are just as questionable as the LOTR. If Tolkein had put Jesus in Middle Earth, would that be further proof of Jesus as a prophet?
It's also a myth that LDS theology is found in the BofM. You learn precious little about Mormonism by reading the BofM. Other than not baptizing infants and baptism by immersion, where is LDS theology in the BofM?
The temple, sacrament, plan of salvation, priesthood structure, Word of Wisdom, missions, etc. are not found in the BofM. The BofM Prophet Jacob openly condemns polygamy.
>and the profound spiritual impact that witness has had on what is now tens of millions of readers—if that is the case, then such a person, elect or otherwise, has been deceived;
Let's face it: the vast majority of Mormons, and there are less than 5 million active Mormons by the church's own estimation, are Mormon because of their parents. Those who have had this "great conversion" likely did so on their mission or before hand, where rejecting the church would have come at great social cost. These so-called conversions rely heavily on confirmation bias.
The myth of millions "coming to Christ" simply by reading the BofM is supported by scant anecdotal evidence that most churches can replicate. Most converts leave the church within a year, and nearly all the BofM witnesses left the church before they died.
With the heavy evidence of DNA, plus the complete lack of supporting evidence by modern archeologists specializing in Mezo-America, it's farcical to call someone who rejects this book as "deceived". On the contrary, most Mormons have been "deceived" by their parents and friends into thinking there is more evidence than exists and ignoring the mountains of evidence refuting it.
>and if he or she leaves this Church, it must be done by crawling over or under or around the Book of Mormon to make that exit."
Or you can just plow through the enormous logical holes int the book and in Holland's arguments. To be fair, I did not leave because of the BofM; I actually always liked it growing up. I left because I found JS a despicable fraud, and deduced that his book was a lie because he was a congenital liar.
Anyone who believes - by Diapason
Anyone who believes the Book of Mormon must do so by crawling over, under, or around DNA evidence. (Of course, that would be after they crawled over, under, or around the complete lack of archaeological evidence…….which or course would be after they crawled over, under, or around cumons, and cureloms.)
Anyone who believes that JS had a vision in which is saw God the Father and Jesus Christ must do so by crawling over, under, or around the conflicting versions of the first vision.
Anyone who believes the Book of Abraham was a divinely inspired and accurate translation from Egyptian papyri must do so by crawling under, over, or around the facsimiles.
Anyone who believes that JS was martyred must do so by crawling over, under, or around the bullets he fired into the mob outside the jail.
Anyone one who believes that the temple ordinances are sacred and inspired must do so by crawling over, under, or around the copied Masonic rituals.
Anyone who believes that JS was an honest and upright man (let alone a prophet) must do so by crawling over, under, or around the Kirtland Anti Banking Society fraud.
Anyone who believes that JS was in Carthage jail because of religious persecution must do so by crawling over, under, or around the Nauvoo Expositor.
shifting the burden of proof - by AxelDC
Holland et al. are very guilty of shifting the burden of proof. They are making the assertion that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, and then saying, "Prove that it isn't!"
When you present them with the evidence, they think all they have to do is cast doubt on the idea that the BofM is a fraud, not that they have to prove that it isn't.
In criminal law, it would be "guilty until proven innocent".
Book of Abraham was enough for me - by Makurosu
I don't have to. The Book of Abraham was enough for me.
The Book of Abraham sufficiently proved to me that Smith was a fraud. I don't see any reason to continue disproving his books, unless Mr. Holland believes that God reveals his sacred truths through liars and cheats.
In any case, it's ridiculous to say that the Book of Mormon is "teeming with literary and Semitic complexity." LOL! The Book of Mormon is not an ancient book any more than Lord of the Rings is, and Lord of the Rings is more internally consistent, has a better story, makes more sense, and even has believably fake ancient languages. I don't need to prove where the book came from to know it's a fraud. I only have to read it and snicker at the silliness of it. Sorry, Mormons.
the 531 pages - by OzPoof
Surely the 531 pages of a heretofore unknown text don't include the plagiarisms from the KJV. That would make Holland a liar.
late to the exmo conference by btc
Swedeboy was late to the exmo conference and he said that it was because a semi loaded with BoMs overturned and they couldn't get around, over, under or through them.
A tribute to Holland's fervent Seussian testimony - by Gorspel Dacktrin
If a Book of Mormon
I do see:
I will not crawl over, under, around
I will not call and beg that help be found
I will not bawl cuz Nephi almost drowned
I'll just stand tall and then will leap and bound
Over it all my feet can jump and pound
Holland has gall but indeed has no ground
His claim must fall, no proof comes to astound
To make all crawl over, under, around
For I do see
The Book of Mormon
(At this point we gots ourself a kind of chiasmus thing going on.)
For what is is
And what it is...
Is full of Shiz!
10/06/2009 - by Danna from Post Mormon
Holland related how Hyrum read from Ether,"words of comfort to the heart of his brother" before they departed. Whatever that actually means, the very strong implication is that Hyrum read to Joseph. (The phrasing is really weaselly - if he didn't trip over his tongue the strong suspiscion is that the odd phrase has been crafted as deliberate 'escape' - increasing the sense of deliberate misleading). And Holland continued to support this quite logical inference throughout his speech.
The apostle relates how the two men went to their martyrdom pondering the truths of the Book of Mormon. "In the hour they died", Holland tells us, they were "quoting from and finding solace in" the Book of Mormon. How, could anyone believe that Joseph wrote the book either himself or as part of a conspiracy to defraud, when he went to his death believing and acting upon the book? Would these "men BLASPHEME before God by continuing to fix their ...eternal salvation... on a book they fictitiously created out of whole cloth".
Indeed we apostates are perverse to disbelieve, given the blood sacrifice of Joseph and Hyrum for the truth of the book. To make our exit from the church we must crawl over, under, or around the Book of Mormon.
This is deliberately deceptive.
There is nothing to indicate that Hyrum read the passage to Joseph, or that they were even together that morning before departure to Carthage, or that Joseph had any interest in the Book of Mormon at all during that period. The events leading down the road to Carthage had everything to do with concealing Joseph's (and others') illicit sexual relationships with multiple women.
In spite of his frequent pessimistic predictions of his impending martyrdom (the sort of statements he had made in many similar situations in the past), the weight of evidence indicates that Joseph expected rescue by the Nauvoo Legion. He and Hyrum were armed. The group drank wine, smoked tobacco, and sang songs to keep their spirits up. In no sense were Joseph's and Hyrum's deaths any sort of testament of the Book of Mormon. No current theory of the production of the Book of Mormon implicates Hyrum. Indeed the misbehavior for which Joseph was ultimately incarcerated is condemned by the Book of Mormon – had he actually followed it, he would not have found himself in that predicament.
Their deaths simply had little-to-nothing to do with the Book of Mormon.
Then, the book he was holding up bears little resemblence to the book earlier identified in the LDS Church News as the one dog-eared by Hyrum and belonging to Bathsheba Smith, the Wife of Geo. A. Smith.
The book has her name inscribed on the front, and Hyrum's dog-ear folds over about four lines of type:
Holland's copy has no inscription, and the dog-ear turns over about ten lines of text:
But Holland states: "I hold in my hand, that book!, the very copy from which Hyrum read. The same corner of the page, turned down, still visible!"
And yes, I do think this book could be a simple mistake, but the context of the entire speech indicates a deliberate attempt to deceive. History has been rewritten. Elder Holland should fire his researcher.
05/04/2006 - by Grey Matter
Did you ever feel that our supposed "prophets, seers and revelators", or special witnesses of Christ", as they like to call themselves, were lacking in some ways?
I mean, when did you ever hear any of them give any detail of their so-called special witness? Never. Right? When did you hear them give an original prophecy? Never. Right? When did you ever hear them pronounce a revelation? Never. right? And the seer stuff? Never. Right.
Unlike the prophets of the old, our specials keep their lips tightly shut, except when they are sucking their swollen stipends from the cult's coffers.
The only thing the prophets seem to be good at is preaching a gospel of hopelessness. If there is a loving God in the heavens above, you won't hear him talked about by any of these suspect seers. They prefer the God of gloom and despair.
I remember some years ago, Mr. Holland decided to bless our lives by attending a ward re-dedication. The building had been tarted up a bit, and was almost as good as new. It's a pity the inspired cult admin-folks who dreamed up the changes ordered that the maple flooring in the cultural hall should be replaced by carpet, but these things happen - the church never has had the reputation of employing clever people. The cult has to take the dregs that would never get jobs in the real world (FARMS may be a case in point).
Back to Holland.
He rode into town, and wondered into the building. During his brief appearance, he was completely out of touch, and somewhere else. There was an absolute disconnect between Holland and the cult-members who were there to adore him.
I remember he talked about his wife, and bragged about a priesthood blessing he gave her, quoting scripture to her as he went along. It was a complete bore. Nothing he actually said meant anything to anyone. And then, he spluttered his glorious apostolic blessing.
This apostolic blessing was such a prophetic success that, uh, come to think of it, numbers in the ward have actually dwindled since then.
He couldn't have cared less, and it showed.
So, I guess, based on that experience, I took an instant dislike to Holland.
05/04/2006 - by Geek Squad
When I went to BYU the job opportunities in the Provo/Orem area were horrible, so students would work as landscapers for the campus maintenance dept. I was assigned to rake leaves at President Hollands home and I was the only person there tackling huge piles of leaves.
President Holland then came home and saw me struggling to bag a huge amount of leaves by myself. He asked if I had others helping me and I said no. He said I needed help and he would make a call and have more help sent over then he asked me if I was hungry. I said I didn't want to put Sister Holland to any trouble and he said it wouldn't be putting Sister Holland to any trouble because he came home for lunch and he would make it for the both of us.
So I'm sitting in the Holland's kitchen and he's asking me what I wanted on my sandwich. I thought President Holland was a nice person. I mean how many university presidents invite students into their homes and make them lunch?
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