I recall many years ago, being an usher at the Marriott Center. Bruce R spoke at a 12 stake fireside. One of his topics was sabbath observance. He noted how his FIL (Joseph Fielding Smith) would not shop on Sundays or at stores that opened on Sunday.
After working that Sunday evening at the fireside, I realized I had nothing at home to eat, and was too tired to shop (oh, and it was Sunday), so I stopped at a local fast food place in Provo. I got my food and sat down to eat.
In walked Brucie Pooh, who also got something to eat and sat down close to me. I turned to Bruce and noted that it appeared that neither of us seemed to heed his inspired words. He informed me that he had been up since early that morning, was tired and needed something to eat.
I smiled and told him, "me too". His looked could have burned holes in my skin. Hah!
When I was a child Bruce R. was appointed Mission President to one of the then two Australian missions. He replaced a genuinely warm & avuncular man with a delightful wife. We lived in another state from the mission home & fortunately only saw McConkie at conference times.
He terrified me. His conference talks were always blood & thunder & berating the efforts of missionaries & members alike. I dreaded being forced to meet him & shake his hand, I still cringe at the fawning of people who thought his relationship with Joseph Fielding Smith made him somehow special.
I have never met an individual as anaemic & acidulated as his wife. The only emotion she displayed was contempt for the membership. This came through loud & clear in her talks , The rest of the time she looked bored. I wondered even as a child how someone who was raised by a "prophet"& was married to someone who considered himself as good as could be so lacking in essential "niceness" & even manners.
I have done considerable work with abused women & can recognise now, that a lot of her behaviours are manifestations of at the least emotional abuse.
I lived in the Southern Australian Mission [Adelaide, S.A.] when McConkie was Mission President. Everyone seemed to know that he was there to 'purify his system' after the "Mormon Doctrine" shitstorm. He was indeed a judgmental, sour, impersonal man... and a blowhard! He often spoke for sixty to ninety minutes, expounding at length on his pet topics.
Of course I was in the minority - the people who 'mattered' used to fawn over him and repeat his words right up until the next District Conference when he would descend on us again. Didn't miss him at all when he left!
I sat in the hot tub at Canyon Road Towers with McConkie.
My dad owned a couple condos at the Canyon Road Towers. McConkie lived there and one evening I was sitting in the hot tub and he came in the pool area, Swam a little and kicked back in the hot tub.
I had a good conversation with him but nothing church related. I knew who he was but he was so laid back that night I didn't want to spoil it by bringing up the church.
Editor's note: This is in response to a national news story of Mormon Elders caught desecrating a religious shrine.
When I was learning my mission language in Provo, Bruce McConkie came and spoke in a devotional to us missionaires.
He told a story of attending the Christian exhibit at a World's Fair. Bruce R ridiculed the whole thing. The title of the exhibit "Sacred Nothingness". When Bruce R said the name "Sacred Nothingness" with sarcasm in his peremptory tone of voice, we all giggled and looked at each other like "what spritual morons!"
Bruce R said someone was playing the organ inside the chapel. He checked and it was a Mormon missionary. Bruce R told us he ordered the missionary to play LDS church hymns. Now we all laughed like naughty boys and girls!
In my mission, we called all Catholic and Protestant church buildings "greuels". This means "abominations". Since my Zone Leaders were doing it, I did it, too. The whole attitude toward the Catholic Church was one of contempt.
On the Morning of the First Resurrection, when all those whose physical tabernacles are literally reconstituted into perfect form (from the dust of the earth -- including cremation ashes, maggot poop, etc.), will everyone automatically regain sexual virgin status?
To be a little more specific, will female hymen tissue be restored to pre-coital (or pre-other) condition? For males, will all of the notches on their belts be removed? Will the Silent Note Takers reset all the boys' LFE counters to zero? (Little Factory Ejaxcercise)
Does anyone know if Bruce R. McConkie ever tackled these important questions? (They ARE legitimate questions. When one makes the claim that God literally occupies a physical human body, and that after death we earthlings will resurrect into literal physicality, one must acknowledge that questions will arise.)
"There is not one historical instance of so-called blood atonement in this dispensation".....
There are plenty of people who wrote just the opposite of Bruce McConkie.
Stenhouse and several others have more than a few stories of blood atonement being carried out. Anyone who reads some of the early accounts of life in Brigham Young's Utah comes away feeling sick. Brigham, it appears, was a murderer. Than can be added to many of his other charms---swindling, lying, stealing, adultery, wife stealing, etc. He was a fine priesthood holder.
McConkie always puzzled me. He had a law degree, as I recall. He had a certain degree of intelligence. I could not understand how he bought off on all the nonsense that came from early Mormonism. His talk on dispensations is a classic of weird theology. Same for his talk on "the divine sonship of Jesus Christ." He took the bizarre and tried to make it normal. It was never understandable.
He wrote about Kolob, the "war in heaven," the "Book of Abraham," and all the rest of the nutjobbery. And he wanted us to believe.
He destroyed George Pace because Pace was more popular than he was. That was the real sin of Pace---popularity.
Bruce might be missed by a few, but it's a very few. Family members, perhaps, or nut jobs who cannot think about anything rationally.
Bruce was a good example of just how far out in koo koo land one can get and not be locked up.
Guess God's no longer a Mormon, otherwise he wouldn't have let his team get beat by the Catholics ND 49 BYU 23.
McConkie must be spinning in his grave because another Mother of all harlots school beat the Lord's university. That makes BYU 0-3 vs abomination sponsored institutions this year.
When I was at the LTM (Language Training Mission in Provo, Utah) many years ago it was announced that Big Bruce was coming to visit with us missionaries in the Provo temple and we could ask him any question that we wanted. Of course they only gave us a few hours warning to think of any question we might want to ask.
The meeting was at about 5:00 a.m. We missionaries were dressed in white and packed into this small room to the point of sitting on each other. In fact my memory has exaggerated the experience to where there were hundreds of sleepy missionaries roosting on the walls, on top of cabinets and clinging from the ceiling like we were in an overcrowded chicken coop. About 20 minutes late, in strides the mighty man of God explaining that he had just gotten out of another meeting, late. Bullsh** I thought, at that hour? But I did admire him for even coming to speak to us at all.
He delivered a short typical message and opened it up for questions. Every single question was of the suck-up type: "On page 859 of your inspiring work (see, I read 859 pages of your book)... it says that..... Would you like to elaborate on that point?" What were these geeks thinking? That he might actually remember one of us and make us an apostle some day? Fast forward to General Conference some 30 years in the future. Prophet, Seer, and Revelator McConkie at the pulpit during perilous times unthinkable, atomic bombs going off and masses of the wicked being driven to and fro upon the face of the entire earth. Earthquakes, summer blizzards, drought and famine. Terrible traffic jams as the ten tribes return from outer space. President McConkie announces that (drum roll) I am called to be the newest apostle. Yes. To save the church from destruction. And President McConkie remembers fondly that time in the LTM so many years before when I asked such a profound and inspiring question. The future prophet knew at that moment what great things were in store for this obscure missionary and future apostle.
I am getting carried away, sorry. Anyway, I thought to perhaps ask some more difficult question. I didn't want that precious time to go entirely to waste. But I had heard scary things about him and I first wanted to test the waters. I also realized that he probably wouldn't call on me twice. So I wrote on the back of my vocabulary card a warm up question for my companion to ask him. My companion was so gullible and innocent and clueless.
My question was: "What is the connection, if any, between 2 Nephi 1:14 (?) and Shakespeare's Hamlet Act 3: line X?" At the time I had a sharp memory and I could actually recall the exact reference in each work. It is a phrase something like "...whose limbs ye must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave from whence no traveler can return." And if I recall 17 of these 19 words are exactly the same. So it is a possible example where a confabulating Joseph Smith copied from memory directly from a Shakespeare play into the Book of Mormon text.
Now I knew that there were some possible solutions to the problem. So it was a legitimate question. A common source in the Old Testament; McConkie should know it if anyone did. Or another common source from antiquity available to both Shakespeare and Nephi. Even a plausible but now lost source, since about 400 years have elapsed since Hamlet was composed. Or some translational explanation. I wanted to hear his response and if it was favorable, I hoped to hit him hard with a really difficult question; maybe on post manifesto polygamy or the rumors then circulating about B.H Robert's doubts generated from his study of View of the Hebrews or the recently died down fascimile controversy over the Book of Abraham or the squelching of Arrington's efforts to tell real church history. Or the big tuna of all hot topics at that time; Blacks and the Priesthood and why Elijah Able and his descendents were exempt from exclusion. I couldn't decide which would be most useful and I really didn't know what I was trying to accomplish.
So my robot companion raised his hand, was called upon and slowly read the question off the card. Silence. No one even understod the question. Suddenly the Lion of the Lord roared. McConkie was a tall large man and when angry he was very intimidating. "How dare you .... Where did you find such...." He shouted in a loud voice shaking his raised fist in the air. He came close to physical blows and if so many missionaries had not been seated so closely together he might have done it. My poor companion quivered and tried to appologize but for what? Suddenly I felt like I did at that one BYU versus Utah football game when the score was about 70-0 in the first quarter and I had smuggled in this Red Indian Blanket to Cougar stadium. And I was waving it around and yelling things like "We surrender!" "Don't scalp us." "Send in the cheerleaders." The numberless throngs of faithful BYU coeds sitting around me were not laughing. This was serious business and they needed another touchdown.
They dog piled me and punched the h*** out of me, (obviously not enough of it). And I felt that same mob anger posing as righteous indignation in that room in the temple filled with all of those missionaries directed against my hapless companion. McConkie ended his short tantrum with the single word "DEPART," while pointing his impossibly long arm towards the door. My distorted memory has his arm about 10 feet long. My companion gratefully ran from the temple in tears for reasons entirely beyond his comprehension. I learned a valuable lesson about church leadership that has saved me time and time again.
For the rest of the meeting I was scared and wanted to crawl under a chair. I didn't move and soon the ordeal was over. He had been very friendly and uplifting to those who adored him. As I pondered his response later, I realized that first he had to be aware of the problem or he would not have reacted so violently. And second I realized that although he could yell louder than I and kick me out of the temple because of his position, in a fair contest of opinions, he had lost. Because he had not advanced a single reasonable explanation. In fact, I realized that I could defend the Faith better than he could and this gave me a quiet confidence as I departed on my mission.
Big Bruce was often full of hot air and I knew it. His thick books after Mormon Doctrine are the same way. They substitute gallons of ink for content. He can go hundreds of pages and not say much, because he really has so little to say. Most Mormons worship form more than substance, hence his enormous popularity.
I had difficulty trying to explain the question to my companion and finally I told him that it was just a prank that came off badly and to not worry about it. Just because the most admired apostle in the entire church kicks you out of the temple the same way God kicked Lucifer out of the garden doesn't mean anything. It was a special test of your faith and you passed with flying colors.
One thing I hope not to meet after they lay me down in the cold and silent grave is this McConkie monster totally pissed at me for submitting this story. So use your peepstone and find out what he thinks before you publish it.
Someone here said: I understand that the first edition of McConkie's Mormon Doctrine defined the Catholic Church (and I guess the rest of Christendom) as the Great and Abominable Church, but that he had to change later editions so that it did not read this way.
This is what McConkie said in his First Edition of Mormon Doctrine:
"It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this 'church which is the most abominable above all other churches' in vision. He 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it' and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Nephi 13:1-10)" - Mormon Doctrine, p. 130 (1958)
"Harlots. See Church of the Devil, Sex Immorality. Literally a harlot is a prostitute; figuratively it is any apostate church. Nephi, speaking of harlots in the literal sense and while giving a prophetic description of the Catholic Church, recorded that he 'saw the devil that he was the foundation of it.' ... Then speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, he designated the Catholic Church as 'the mother of harlots' (1 Nephi 13:34; 14:15-17), a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches." - Mormon Doctrine, pp. 314-315 (1958)
McConkie took a lot of heat for these paragraphs and was called on by church leaders to have them cleaned up for the Second Edition. McConkie must have learned his lesson. In later teachings on the Great and Abominable Church, McConkie was much more careful.
Here's how this same apostle explained this doctrine years later in General Conference:
"The world today is full of people who draw near to the Lord with their lips, but whose hearts are far from him. “They teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof” JS—H 1:19."
"The same spiritual darkness covered the earth in the day when Jesus ministered among men. Of those who would not hear his voice our Lord said:"
“Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, “This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. “But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” (Matt. 15:7-9.)
True worshippers worship the true God according to true principles. There is no salvation in worshipping a false god or in believing a false doctrine. All such worship is in vain. It has no saving virtue or power. - Bruce R. McConkie, “The Teacher’s Divine Commission,” Ensign, Apr. 1979, Page 21
He doesn't single out any specific church, but don't you think the holier-than-thou teaching is still there?
Its wayyyyy too bad this self-infatuated dumb son of perdition is dead. I can do a dead on Bruce R.Mc Donkie impersonation, at least the voice. I really have to struggle to talk for very long and say as little in as many, many, many words, true to McDonkie fashion. He spoke at our mission, blah, blah, blah. This is another Mor(m)on, even as an assposthole who would make me avoid the Celestial kingDUM, if there was one, like the plague.
I wish he were quizzing/attempting to belittle me at a mission conference. How I would enjoy getting up and mocking him in his own prententious monotone bass drone! BTW despite Hincksters declaration that Mor(m)on Polygamy is NON docturinal, McDonkie firmly says it will have to be re-instituted for Christ's second coming in his book Mor(m)on Docturine.
When I was a missionary in Argentina, Bruce visited our mission. He gave the typical rah-rah talk and then started asking the missionaries questions. He started at the front row and started working his way back. It was like an oral examination. Thankfully, I was sitting in the very back translating for the spanish-speaking missionaries.
Ole Bruce was going from Elder to Elder when he asked one especially obsequious elder (Elder Grant Underwood) who god loved more, the prophet or the pope in Rome. Ole Grant who was running for general authority since primary, but stammered out that he thought god loved us all equally. WELLLLLLL....the feces really impacted the ventilation. Bruce started turning red and YELLING at the top of his lungs that "that is a typical sectarian answer" and then called Grant stupid.
He also said that nobody NOBODY had a testimony of the church without reading the book of mormon. I had joined the church when I was thirteen after having a "spiritual experience" and had never read the b of m until my mission. I asked him about it in my interview with him. He back tracked and came up with some lame exception.
The whole experience really freaked me out. Here was this MAJOR apostle acting like a total jerk. I mean he was down right mean....I got over it when I ran into him in the men's room. He was standing at the urinal and I realized he was just some jerky guy....jerky guy with a tiny little dick who obviously had a LOT of issues....like how to use a urinal and keep his shoes dry.
When I was just a little boy, I heard big Bruce R. Mckookie, a leading apostle at the time, thunder from the old tabernacle in Paris Idaho about the Blacks. He claimed that if the day ever came that you went into a Mormon church and saw a "Darkie" officiating at the Sacrament table, then you would know with absolute assurance that the church had gone into apostacy. That if you ever saw a Black hand extended to you through the veil in the temple then you would know that the very devil himself had taken possession of the temple. God was not Black, he asserted, and it would be blasphemy and mockery of the vilest kind for a Black person to participate like that in these sacred rituals.
It makes me wonder just what the Lord told them in June of 1978, to get such deeply bigotted people to change their minds. How could we take anything he said before or after that seriously?
In the weeks following the 1978 revelation, they quietly reaffirmed that the prohibition against mixed race marriage had not been lifted. But it seems that they have retreated from even this issue. And in Southeastern Idaho, just how many Black folks do you suppose we were talking about? Like none actually lived there. - 07/19/2001 - anon
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
The Council of the Twelve
47 East South Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
February 19, 1981
Mr. Eugene England
C/O Honors Program
4012 Harold B Lee Library
Provo, Utah 84602
Dear Brother England:
This may well be the most important letter you have or will receive. It is written in reply to an undated letter from you which came in an envelope postmarked, September 4, 1980. Your letter enclosed a 19-[Page document which you had prepared under the title, "The Perfection and Progression of God: Two Spheres of Existence and Two Modes of Discourse."
In your letter and the article enclosed with it, you set forth the thesis that although God knows all things as pertaining to our sphere of existence, there are nonetheless other spheres beyond ours in which Deity continues to advance and progress in knowledge and truth. In espousing and explaining this philosophy you suppose you are harmonizing quotations from various of the early Brethren. Some of these statements emphatically say that God knows all things and has all power and others of them say that he is advancing in knowledge and under-standing and is gaining new truths.
When your letter arrived I was aware of the subject material contained in it and in the enclosed article. Because I do not engage in controversy or discussion of divergent views, either orally or in writing, I simply dropped your letter in a drawer and did not bother to read it. Some four and a half months later, in January of this year, I did read your presentation for the first time. I was not at all pleased, but still thought I would have nothing to say to you on the subject.
Over the months various hearsay reports have come to me indicating that you are presenting and championing the views you sent to me. I have now reached the conclusion that it would be wise for me to depart from my usual custom and send you an answer to your letter. I do so out of respect for your parents, G. Eugene and Dora, and for your own personal well-being and for your guidance where your teachings and discussions with others are concerned.
I shall write in kindness and in plainness and perhaps with sharpness. I want you to know that I am extending to you the hand of fellowship though I hold over you at the same time, the scepter of judgement. My office door is open to you and if you feel the need for discussion with me, my secretary will be pleased to set up a mutually convenient time or times for such.
On Sunday, June 1, 1980, I spoke at one of the multi-stake firesides in the Marriott Center on the subject, "The Seven Deadly Heresies." In that talk I said:
"There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.
"This is false--utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follet Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.
"God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply--not in the sense that he learns new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.
"The life that God lives is named eternal life. His name, one of them, is 'Eternal,' using that word as a noun and not as an adjective, and he uses that name to identify the type of life that he lives. God's life is eternal life, and eternal life is God's life. They are one and the same. Eternal life is the goal we shall obtain if we believe and obey and walk uprightly before him. And eternal life consists of two things. It consists of life in the family unit, and, also, of inheriting, receiving, and possessing the fulness of the glory of the Father. Anyone who has each of these things is an inheritor and possessor of the greatest of all gifts of God, which is eternal life.
"Eternal progression consists of living the kind of life God lives and of increasing in kingdoms and dominions everlastingly Why anyone should suppose that an infinite and eternal being, who has presided in our universe for almost 2,555,000,000 years, who made the sidereal heavens, whose creations are more numerous than the particles of the earth, and who is aware of the fall of every sparrow--why anyone would suppose that such a being has more to learn and new truths to discover in the laboratories of eternity is totally beyond my comprehension.
"Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the
one he has already given to man in worlds without number?
"The saving truth, as revealed to and taught, formally and officially, by the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Lectures on Faith is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He knows all things, he has all power, and he is everywhere present by the power of his Spirit. And unless we know and believe this doctrine we cannot gain faith unto life and salvation.
"Joseph Smith also taught in the Lectures on Faith 'that three things are necessary in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation These he named as:
1. "'The idea that he actually exists';
2. "'A correct idea of his character, perfections, and attributes'; and
3. "'An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing is according to the divine will.'
"The attributes of God are given as knowledge, faith or power, justice, judgement, mercy, and truth. The perfections of God are named as 'the perfections which belong to all of the attributes of his nature,' which is to say that God possesses and has all knowledge, all faith or power, all justice, all judgement, all mercy, and all truth. He is indeed the very embodiment, personification, and source of all these attributes. Does anyone suppose that God can be more honest than he already is? Neither need any suppose there are truths he does not know or knowledge he does not possess.
"Thus Joseph Smith taught, and these are his words:
'Without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures, for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.' (Cited, Mormon Doctrine, p. 264)
"If God is just dabbling with a few truths he has already chanced to learn or experimenting with a few facts he has already discovered, we have no idea as to the real end and purpose of creation."
The foregoing quotation is from the published version of the talk. As it was actually given it included the following
paragraph: "Will he one day learn something that will destroy the plan of salvation and turn man and the universe into an uncreated nothingness? Will he discover a better plan of salvation than the one he has already given to men in worlds without number? I have been sorely tempted to say at this point that any who so suppose have the intellect of an ant and the understanding of a clod of miry clay in a primordial swamp--but of course I would never say a thing like that." I deliberately deleted the last quoted sentence because it does not come out in print the way it was expressed by voice. It was said in such a tone as to draw laughter from the congregation and is of course, a normal use of hyperbole.
In that same devotional speech I said: "There are those who believe or say they believe that Adam is our father and our God, that he is the father of our spirits and our bodies, and that he is the one we worship." I, of course, indicated the utter absurdity of this doctrine and said it was totally false.
Since then I have received violent reactions from Ogden Kraut and other cultists in which they have expounded upon the views of Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren relative to Adam. They have plain and clear quotations saying all of the things about Adam which I say are false. The quotations are in our literature and form the basis of a worship system followed by many of the cultists who have been excommunicated from the Church. I also received, of course, your material in which you quote from Brigham Young and others of the early Brethren saying that God is progressing in knowledge.
I assume that you were aware of the foregoing quotations when you wrote me in September of 1980. In the October 1980 General Conference, without as yet having read your material. I said the following:
"True religion is found only where men worship the true and living God. False religion always results from the worship of false gods. Eternal life itself, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God, is available to those and those only who know God and Jesus Christ whom he hath sent.
"It is all the rage in this modern world to worship false gods of every sort and kind. There are those who bow before idols of wood and stone, and others who lisp their petitions to icon and images. There are those who worship cows and crocodiles, and others who acclaim Adam or Allah or Buddha as their Supreme Being.
"There are those who apply the names of Deity to some spirit essence that is immaterial, uncreated and unknowable and
that fills the immensity of space and is everywhere and nowhere in particular present.
"And there are even those who champion the almost unbelievable theory that God is an Eternal student enrolled in the University of the Universe where he is busily engaged in learning new truths and amassing new and strange knowledge that he never knew before.
"How belittling it is--it borders on blasphemy--to demean the Lord God Omnipotent by saying he is an idol, or an image, or an animal, or a spirit essence, or that he is ever learning but never able to come to a knowledge of all truth.
"It is the first principle of revealed religion to know nature and kind of being that God is. As for us: 'We know [and testify] that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them.' (D&C 20:17)
"This great God, the Lord Almighty, is a personage of tabernacle. He 'has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's' (D&C 130:22) He is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. He has all power, knows all things, and, by the power of his Spirit, is in and through all things."
On Tuesday, February 17, 1981, I was the speaker at the BYU Devotional. My subject was "The Three Pillars of Eternity." under which heading I spoke of the creation, the fall and the atonement. With reference to the omnipotence and omniscience of God I said in the talk:
"Who is Elohim? He is God the Eternal Father. He is a glorified and exalted personage. He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. In the language of Adam, Man of Holiness is his name. He is omnipotent, omniscient,, and omnipresent He knows all things and has all power--not simply as pertaining to us or in some prescribed sphere or realm--but in the absolute eternal, and unlimited sense. In the ultimate sense, he is the Creator. And anything you may have heard to the contrary, whether in the creeds of Christendom or the mouthings of intellectuals who, in their own eyes, know more than the Lord, is false."
Now may I say something for your guidance and enlightenment. If what I am about to say should be taken out of context and published in Dialogue or elsewhere, it would give an entirely erroneous impression and would not properly present the facts. As it happens, I am a great admirer of Brigham Young and a great believer in his doctrinal presentations. He was called of God.
He was guided by the Holy Spirit in his teachings in general. He was a mighty prophet. He led Israel the way the Lord wanted his people led. He built on the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph. He completed his work and has gone on to eternal exaltation.
Nonetheless, as Joseph Smith so pointedly taught, a prophet is not always a prophet, only when he is acting as such. Prophets are men and they make mistakes. Sometimes they err in doctrine. This is one of the reasons the Lord has given us the Standard Works. They become the standards and rules that govern where doctrine and philosophy are concerned. If this were not so, we would believe one thing when one man was president of the Church and another thing in the days of his successors. Truth is eternal and does not vary. Sometimes even wise and good men fall short in the accurate presentation of what is truth. Sometimes a prophet gives personal views which are not endorsed and approved by the Lord.
Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is, that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.
Yes, Brigham Young did say some things about God progressing in knowledge and understanding, but again, be it know, that Brigham Young taught emphatically and plainly, that God knows all things and has all power meaning in the infinite, eternal and ultimate and absolute sense of the word. Again, the issue is, which Brigham Young shall we believe and the answer is: We will take the one whose statements accord with what God has revealed in the Standard Works.
I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved. I think you can also give me credit for knowing what Brigham Young said about God progressing. And again, that is something he will have to account for. As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with
what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation.
This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines,...wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!" (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.
It should be perfectly evident that under our system of church discipline, it would be anticipated that some others besides Brigham Young would pick up some of his statements and echo them. Those who did this, also on other occasions, taught accurately and properly what the true doctrines of the gospel are. I do not get concerned when a good and sound person who, on the over-all, is teaching the truth happens to err on a particular point and say something in conflict with what he has said himself on a previous occasion. We are all mortal. We are all fallible. We all make mistakes. No single individual all the time is in tune with the Holy Spirit, but I do get concerned when some person or group picks out false statements and makes them the basis of their presentation and theology and thus ends up having a false concept of the doctrine, which in reality, was not in the mind of the person whose quotations they are using.
Wise gospel students do not build their philosophies of life on quotations of individuals, even though those quotations come from presidents of the Church. Wise people anchor their doctrine on the Standard Works. When Section 20 says that God is infinite and eternal, it means just that and so on through all
of the revelations. There is no need to attempt to harmonize conflicting views when some of the views are out of harmony with the Standard Works. This is what life is all about. The Lord is finding out what we will believe in spite of the allurements of the world or the philosophies of men or the seemingly rational and logical explanations that astute people make.
We do not solve our problems by getting a statement from the president of the Church or from someone else on a subject. We have been introduced to the gospel; we have the gift of the Holy Ghost; we have the Standard Works and it is our responsibility to get in tune and understand properly what the Lord has revealed and has had us canonize. The end result of this course of personally and individually pursuing light and truth is to reach that millennial state of which the scriptures say it will no longer be necessary for every man to say to his neighbor "know the Lord," for all shall know him from the greatest to the least. Joseph Smith says this will be by the spirit of revelation.
If it is true, as I am advised, that you speak on this subject of the progression of God at firesides and elsewhere, you should cease to do so. If you give other people copies of the material you sent me, with the quotations it contains, you should cease to do so. It is not in your province to set in order the Church or to determine what its doctrines shall be. It is axiomatic among us to know that God has given apostles and prophets "for the edifying of the body of Christ," and that their ministry is to see that "we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the slight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive." (Eph. 4:11-16.) This means, among other things, that it is my province to teach to the Church what the doctrine is. It is your province to echo what I say or to remain silent. You do not have a divine commission to correct me or any of the Brethren. The Lord does not operate that way. If I lead the Church astray, that is my responsibility, but the fact still remains that I am the one appointed with all the rest involved so to do. The appointment is not given to the faculty at Brigham Young University or to any of the members of the Church. The Lord's house is a house of order and those who hold the keys are appointed to proclaim the doctrines.
Now you know that this does not mean that individuals should not do research and make discoveries and write articles. What it does mean is that what they write should be faith promoting and where doctrines are concerned, should be in harmony with that which comes from the head of the Church. And those at
the head of the Church have the obligation to teach that which is in harmony with the Standard Works. If they err then be silent on the point and leave the event in the hands of the Lord. Some day all of us will stand before the judgement bar and be accountable for our teachings. And where there have been disagreements the Lord will judge between us. In the meantime if we want to save our own souls we need to strive with all the power we have to be in harmony with the revelations and not to be teaching or promulgating doctrines that suit our fancy.
I advise you to take my counsel on the matters here involved. If I err, that is my problem; but in your case if you single out some of these things and make them the center of your philosophy, and end up being wrong, you will lose your soul. One of the side effects of preaching contrary to what the Brethren preach is to get a spirit of rebellion growing up in your heart. This sort of thing cankers the soul spiritually. It drives people out of the Church. It weakens their faith. All of us need all of the faith and strength and spiritual stability we can get to maintain our positions in the Church and to work out our salvation.
Now, I think I have said enough in this letter so that if you are receptive and pliable, you will get the message. If you are not, rebellion will well up in your heart. I pray for your well-being. I repeat: the door to my office is open. Perhaps I should tell you what one of the very astute and alert General Authorities said to me when I chanced to mention to him the subject of your letter to me. He said: "Oh dear, haven't we rescued him enough times already."
Now I hope you will ponder and pray and come to a basic understanding of fundamental things and that unless and until you can on all points, you will remain silent on those where differences exist between you and the Brethren. This is the course of safety. I advise you to pursue it. If you do not, perils lie ahead. It is not too often in this day that any
Now I hope you will ponder and pray and come to a basic understanding of fundamental things and that unless and until you can on all points, you will remain silent on those where differences exist between you and the Brethren. This is the course of safety. I advise you to pursue it. If you do not, perils lie ahead. It is not too often in this day that any of us are told plainly and bluntly what ought to be. I am taking the liberty of so speaking to you at this time, and become thus a witness against you if you do not take the counsel.
I repeat: I have every good wish for you, pray that the Lord will bless you and hope that things will work out properly and well in your life.
Bruce R. McConkie
BRM : vh
P.S. I am taking the liberty of sending copies of this response to those to whom you sent communication.
[The words DO NOT REPRODUCE appeared on every page]
Many of the comments on this site are not only vulgar but infantile as well. How 'bout just the facts ma'am? One thing for certain, Elder McConkie was/is a controversial figure. Here's my experience with him. I converted to the Church when I was 12 years old. It was the best thing I have ever done.I am still an active member of the Church in good standing. I have had many opportunities, just like all of us, to leave the Church and to go inactive because of the stupid things that members have said and done. They are imperfect members, just like me and just like Elder McConkie. I was in the MTC in 1982 when he delivered his well known speech wherein he verbally eviscerated Glen Pace from the pulpit. Looking back, I remember feeling offended by some of the things he said. However,at the time I didn't really pay attention to my internal cues.As an obedient missionary I listened to him.This has been troubling to me and I have re-thougth this experience over and over. In hind sight, he probably had good intentions about clarifying some points of doctrine and over did it. Perhaps he WAY overdid it. Interestingly enough, just last year a brother in my ward had informed me that President Spencer W. Kimball, the prophet at the time, made Bruce R. McConkie write a letter of apology to Glen Pace. That seems appropriate. I went back and found this talk on the the Church's website or BYU's website, I don't recall exactly which one it was.I found that some of the more inflammatory and even offensive parts of it had been edited out. Should this shock or disturb me? Not really. Should this shake my testimony of the truthfulness of the Church or Gospel? Not really.Since that I time I have met members of the McConkie family and found some of them to be like him. I don't really like them. I don't really like him either. Was he a narcisstic blowhard as one writer put it? I think these questions are irrelevant. Was Elder McConkie called by God to be an apostle? Maybe he was. Perhaps it is true that God called him because God had a work for him to do.Was he speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost all those many years ago at the pulpit? I don't really know but and what's more I don't really care. Here is the important question: Whom do I really worship? Do I worship him? Of course I don't. I don't worship any man. Perhaps many of you would do well to be introspective and ask yourself the same question: Who do you worship? Here's what I do know: The Father and the Son did appear to Joseph Smith all those years ago. Now the the power of the priesthood and the full truth with all the saving ordinances of the Gospel are on the earth. Since that time, the heavens have been re-opened and the Church is lead by prophets and apostles-prophets and apostles who are imperfect men. On this eve of another General Conference, I look forward with great anticipation to hearing many of them speak the word of God from the pulpit by the power of the Holy Ghost. Now In closing, a quick paraphrased story. The story goes that years ago Brigham Young entered into some sort of business contract with a member of the Church. He contracted some work to be done and when it was done the man would be paid for his work. In the final settlement, the man was not satisfied with with his compensation and he and Brigham Young were unable to arrive at a mutual, satisfactory solution. As the man got up to leave, supposedly Brigham Young said something to him like, "well, now I guess you're going to leave the Church over this." In retort, the man turned around and said something like, "no,no, I'm not going to leave the Church over this, I worship Christ, not his messenger boy!" I do not mean to sow any seeds of disloyalty or cast dispersions upon the leaders of the Church. Everyone of them that I have met personally is a great man. President Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God, but keep this in perspective. Neither Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Thomas S. Monson nor Bruce R. McConkie is a perfect man and none of them are The Savior. Do not be confused about this. - 04/07/2013 - hippysaint who has never head about paragraphs by types like a re-formed Eqyptian
I would like to know how long it has been since this person left the Church? How come he has so much hate built up? Is it that hard to believe in Jesus Christ and
know that he is there. This is what makes the difference. LDS people know he is there. This person has a hard time living the life. - 02/10/2013 - cmachin
In 1981 my Dad was called to be a mission president. Elder McConkie came to our stake conference to release my Dad and to call a new person to be stake president. He stayed in our house. What an great and wonderful experience. I will share a few stories with you about that time.
First, my parents didn't know where they were going on their mission. My Mom wanted to know where she was going, so she asked Elder McConkie if he knew where we were going. Without skipping a beat he said, "Sister, you're going to TONGA! Not only do you have to learn one language, but three!" We all laughed.
Second, I believe it was Saturday night and we were sharing supper with him. He had a bowl of bread and milk. During that supper, we talked to him and asked him questions. My Dad wanted me to ask him about his controversial statement in his first edition of Mormon Doctrine that the blacks would never receive the Priesthood. I declined my Dad's challenge. I think we had a neighbor come and invite himself. He brought the question up. Elder McConkie responded, "I was wrong." End of the story.
Third experience. My Mom was cooking breakfast. I think she cooked up scrambled eggs. Someone said, "Hey, I don't want that many eggs," so they switched their plate with someone else. Another person said, "I don't want that many eggs either," and they switched their plate. Elder McConkie said, "I don't want that many eggs either," and he swapped plates too. We all laughed.
My limited but personal experience with him showed that he was a humble man of God. I will never forget these experiences that I had rubbing shoulders with such a great man. - 12/22/2012 - Thomas
Jesus in speaking of people like McConkie and his supporters: Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. - 04/04/2012 - Holyjoe
Interesting quotes of Mr. McConkie; if true then Mormons ought to be embarassed about some of them, particularly concerning black folks.
Since it cannot be proved that McConkie uttered them, then I must pass on to other things.
Other things such as Mormons's claim that he was an apostle of Christ. Nope ! absolutely not. An apostle according to the Bible was one who had seen the risen Christ and who got his doctrine directly from Him. The reason is obvious.
Neither was he a prophet, nor are any of the leaders of Mormonism since its earliest beginnings. There are no more prophets since the last of the apostles died around 100 AD; this is based on the last book of the Bible and the last chapter and almost the last verse, Revelation 22: 18 - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.- Revelation 22: 18
In short, Mormonism is based on many falsehoods. - 02/22/2012 - Barry
Hahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! I love this site. It exposes the true ass-hole nature of the apostles and most members of the LDS church. I also love how so many of the comments are justifying the truth that B.M. was an ass by saying that the author has "just lost his testimony" and that that happened because of sin - not because the truth of the matter is obvious. HA!
For a group of people that decry justification so often, mormons sure love to exercise its power when it comes to shielding themselves from the truth.
The title of the site is hilarious. I think it should be more prominent. - 02/22/2010 - Bean
The only nut job here is the author of this page. Testimony lost by choice personal axes ground - 02/21/2010 - Train4pain
you are a total moron who has sold his sole to the devil... consider yourself warned! - 02/10/2010 - anon
I read the same thing in 1993, reading a book Doctrines of Salvation by Joseph Fielding Smith, edited by Bruce R. McConkie. I feel quite sure this was the book. But we probably purchased it many years before. Now in looking in the first volume of that two volume book, that statement is no longer there. My husband said Elder McConkie had given a speech about that (where I don't know), but many heard it and it was discussed later in a regular meeting. This was in the late 70's. I have always felt Joseph Fielding Smith was the author of that statement. I feel the person now owning the copyright edited it out. I asked Elder McConkie's son about it, and he denied it. I don't think I am crazy either. We have a foundation of truth in our church, but filled with imperfect members trying to work toward improvement. We can take the good along with the bad and ugly. I would like to see someone find that quote and ref. it. - 02/08/2010 - anon
It is too bad the world has those, like yourself, in it. For whatever reason, you are trying to defeat the work of one of the most amazing men ever to live. His only mission in life was to share his knowledge of the savior, Jesus Christ. How is that a bad thing? I can guarantee that Elder McConkie sought answers through prayer and was given direct revelation. Can you say the same? Whether or not you agree with his teachings is your right. But, just a suggestion... Next time you want to bash somebody, you might want to do your homework a little more thoroughly
How sad! - 02/04/2010 - by Kay
Bruce R. Mcconkie was missunderstood by many. The wicked take the truth to be hard. - 12/27/2009 - Matt
I have never been a fan of Brother McConkie but this site is sick. (Old definition)
What do you want to be when(if) you grow up?
Repentant I hope! - 11/02/2009 - dtanner
You have told many lies, even though I may not know much about Elder Mcconkie. I feel, and I know that these are lies. I hope that one day you can open your eyes and respect these wonderful men of god. You may have lost your testimony of things that were true, but you have no right to lead other down with you. - 10/17/2009 - Sam
Why don't you leave things alone. You are just causing hatred - 09/29/2009 - anon
Most of these comments listed here seem to be side issues that detract from the most important issues regarding the gospel and being saved -- even if they are true. The real issue is knowing that Jesus is our Saviour through spiritual rebirth, knowing (and how to know) who His representatives really are, and how we can repent and be saved so that we can have eternal life and live with Him and the Father again. I am very grateful that the Holy Ghost is in charge of verifying and promoting the truth of spiritual things, and that any one of us can receive the witness from the Holy Ghost irrespective of what others might say - even if their comments are true -- about things that matter most. The scriptures state that we are acting wisely when we take the Holy Ghost to be our guide in finding and living by spiritual truth; and not just rely on what the prophets and those that have reacted to them have stated regarding these issues.
Regarding Bruce R McConkie, I am grateful that, even if he was not perfect and made some mistakes in how he treated and dealt with others, he was willing to bear his testimony that Jesus is the Christ and that it is through Jesus that we can repent and be washed clean. Is not this the real issue? Surely if he was an imperfect representative of Jesus Christ -- a true representative -- would not the Holy Ghost bear witness regarding him teaching what the Lord wanted him to?
In a nutshell to all the comments, the Holy Ghost matters most. - 08/19/2009 - Holy Ghost & Jesus Christ
This board is a joke. I bet every one of you are apostate and mad at God because you can't live up to your expectations and you've sinned. Post my comment or not, this is a joke and you all need to repent. - 02/22/2009 - Andrew
Have this mormons ever heard of the Mark William Hofmann affair?
Have they heard that there's 9 different accounts about the 1st vision?
Have they heard the Brigham Young taught unchristian doctrines?
Do they know Joseph was a Mason and the Temple is a reflection of it?
I'm no one to judge, but have you heard about it? - 02/10/2009 - Me
I am absolutely astounded at the audacity you have to put another man down! Notice I didn't say a man of God, I mean any man in general. Who do you think you are? You have made a complete ass of yourself. It's men like you who have nothing better to do than "prove" you're right. You will pretend my comment won't affect you but it will. You have taken so much of your time to put up a web site to prove someone who isn't even alive, wrong! What kind of a being are you? When you die and are given the chance to meet Elder McConkie you will gravel in your embarrassment and turn from his face because of the guilt you have placed on yourself. How disgusting! - 12/20/2008 - Lisa - General Authority Worshipper and Groupie
All Mormons are pagans in sheep's clothing. They are against civil and human rights and practice witchcraft. I once belonged to this brain washing cult but got out of it over forty years ago. They hate many minorities and do not believe everyone should have their equal rights. They make fun of of the Christian faith through a bogus book called the "book of Mormon." Joseph Smith their foundered tried to take over America and was assassinated by true Americans. Joseph Smith was just another crazy Jim Jones and his followers are all a bunch of crazy pagans. Everyone who believes in civil rights for all Americans should picket their churches nation wide every Sunday year around including their pagan temples where they have secret demonic ceremonies. They are a dangerous cult whose aim is world denomination much like the Moslems want to do. - 11/15/2008 - Hershel Goldberg
I have no stake in this but one of the only articulate sane voices here is by Preston McConkie posted 8/2007. The rest of the name-calling, foul langauge, or inarticulate expressions of bile don't make for a good dialog or information sharing or growth. They just come across as bitter and angry. - 09/30/2008 - Kathy T
It's interesting how you can leave the Church, but you can't leave the Church alone nor its leaders. Elder Bruce R. McConkie was a man, though imperfect, a man called of God and an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Elder McConkie can say with the the Book of Mormon prophet Moroni of old, "And now, if I have no authority for these things, judge ye; for ye shall know that I have authority when ye shall see me, and we shall stand before God at the last day. Amen." (Ether 5:6) - 09/13/2008 - Mark
Wow, last post, 2002. LOOONG TIME.
This page is run by jealous, scared, insignificant pond scum. Bruce is a stud, and not afraid to take a stand, especially on doctrine and philosophies he tries to reveal. Most members, and even apostles, just regurgitate old teachings. Bruce went on a limb, and showed us all how to write talks without quoting 90% of it. Not only that, but he spoke from the heart and with power. Most the people who had a problem with him are simply conformists or scared of his demeanor. To the members who just post "He was an apostle of th Lord Jesus Christ"...Get a life! Don't be such a mormon geek, shit... And stop crying and losing your testimony for a couple hours because you read this page. Stand strong, suck it up. Its all true, but we live in an imperfect world with imperfect people. Grow some balls! and go to the temple often, you'll find your answers there. - 07/25/2008 - Brotha Brigum
Isn't it amazing, the more you try to do good in this life the more peaple seem to want to tear yoyu down. Bro. McConkie did all right. I would'nt put him in the same catagorie as the Savior, but He had His problems being misunderstood too. - 04/29/2008 - Leaker
I concur. Bruce R McConkie was an apostle of the Lord, Jesus Christ. - 04/30/2008 - Matt
Ok BRC was called of god and if you would like to know more about his life read The Bruce R McConkie Story it is a book that his son wrote. It troubles me to find that leaders and members in the church feel this way about a apostle. And Also all this before me is a lie research his life if you wont to know the truth.
Bruce R. McConkie was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. - 04/08/2008 - Jonathan Maddox
Why attack, just preach your own sermon and see if people adore you like they did BRM. - 03/05/2008 - GH
(1) Thanks for reproducing Elder McConkie's quote from his first edition of Mormon Doctrine about the "great and abominable church." An original source is better than reading someone state that he has heard that Elder McConkie wrote such and such.
(2) Thanks for raising the question about 2 Nephi 1:14 and Shakespeare's Hamlet, Act III, Scene I.
I was able to look up the references and include them here for the enjoyment of your readers.
2 Nephi 1:14 "Awake! and arise from the dust, and hear the words of a trembling parent, whose limbs ye must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave, from whence no traveler can return; a few more days and I go the way of all the earth."
Hamlet, Act III, Scene I
"...the dread of something after death, - The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveler returns." - 02/03/2008 - David
I am a faithful, temple attending member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don't happen to like Bruce R. McConkie or his arrogant style or his questionable doctrine. I could give you a long list of his mistakes and false teachings. Well, I will give you a short list: 1 He said it was ok for students to do their homework on Sunday, thus negating all the weight of holy writ that says, "6 days thou shalt labor and do all thy work and on the 7th thou shalt rest" and lots of others I don't have time for. Every time I hear someone loosen up on scriptural teaching about the Sabbath, it is Bruce they quote. 2) He says that being born again is a process and takes a long time. The scriptures say it happens when a person is baptized and recieves the holy Ghost 3) He said in his infamous talk at BYU that bashed a lowly religion professor, George Pace, that we were'nt supposed to worship Jesus Christ or try to be close to Him. This is so remarkably anti-scriptural that it boggles the mind and has had a terrible influence on the church. The prophet at the time was Spencer Kimball who was in the last years of his life and was failing and "out of it." So no one knew what he would have said on the subject. I think Bruce R. took advantage of his being, well, senile, like he did of David O McKay when he published Mormon Doctrine, against the prophet's wishes but D.O. M was in his nineties and likewise too feeble at that point to fight him. (Read David O McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism to read the truth about the whole Mormon Doctrine thing) Bruce R. says that Christ telling Mary Magdalene in the garden to "touch me not" is our metaphorical guide to a proper relationship with Christ. We should not try to get close to him. What bunk! What about Mormon saying that if people repent they might be "clasped in the arms of Jesus." Mormon 5:11 And there are too many scriptures saying we should worship Christ to even start.
Anyway, here's a thought. What if Harold B. Lee, the man who called Bruce R McConkie to be an apostle was in the wrong. Of course, he thought he was doing the right thing. But what if he was the man who tried to steady the ark and was struck down. (D&C 85:8) He was only prophet for 18 months and never called another apostle. Just a thought. And the Doctrine and covenants does say "They who are liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known." 64:39
I feel sorry for the innocent members of the church who want to be able to believe in every leader of the church with innocent trust. But this is not God's way. The mountain meadows massacre came about because a whole stake full of men put their trust in the arm of flesh of their stake president, president Issac Haight, and he told them to commit cold blooded murder of men women anc children, and they did it. We cannot put our trust in the arm of flesh. Where Bruce R. McComkie's doctrinal statements concur with scripture, then we can rely on that. When, in attitude or fact, his teachings are contrary to scripture, then we must be able to see that and admit it. No one is infallible except God. Bruce R. himself said that, it's in the Eugene England letter on this website (end of pg 7 to pg 8) To those of you who had testimonies but are now cynical and using a bunch of potty mouth language that your mothers would be ashamed of you for, come back to the purity you had when you first found Christ in the Book of Mormon or however you found him. Return to that pure purpose of life that will allow you to build up God's children. You can't be an influence for the good of the church on the outside! - 10/31/2007 - KitchenSink Theologian
While disagreement with any man, even an ordained Apostle of the Lord, is completely within the rights of anyone, whether a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints or not, I found the distasteful and disrespectful way in which it was done on this site depressing. The man is dead and whether or not you agree with anything he had to say or approved of his personal character you could have at least shown some respect in your arguments and criticisms. - 10/07/2007 - Professor M
This was a very interesting section to read, which I was directed to by invitation from the moderator of the web site, after I made a comment in an unrelated section. I was particularly happy to read the copy of the letter to Eugene England.
The opening story about Elder McConkie (whom I never met; he died when I was 16 and I'm a comparatively distant relative) was also an interesting read. I had no difficulty believing that things happened roughly the way the anonymous author described. I can certainly envision Elder McConkie throwing a missionary out of the temple for bringing up a contentious question. Certainly the author of the question was not looking for enlightenment, he was being disruptive, and that obviously has no place in the temple (at least, not to anyone who takes the temple seriously as a place to commune with God). Naturally, since it's clear the author doesn't have a testimony of the restoration now--and that his testimony was, at best, weak at the time the event he describes occurred--he would look at serious questions by others who had made a point of studying Elder McConkie's writings, as fawning and shallow. From the perspective of an unbeliever, anything but a disruptive question is not a substantive question.
Doubtless, too, there really were fawning questions, and people hoping to curryg favor. But that doesn't mean their questions weren't worth answering. If an apostle is asked to elaborate, he can elaborate to the enlightenment of all.
Now, if I had been there, I for one would have been plenty pleased to have anyone raising disruptive questions shut down. Elder McConkie obviously recognized the anti-Mormon source of the question; that thing about the similarity between Hamlet and a passage in 2 Nephi is one of the more mundane but perennial chestnuts trotted out by anti-Mormons.
And naturally, our anonymous author exaggerates the similarity between Shakespeare and Nephi. 17 of 19 words the same? Not at all. The pertinent part of Hamlet reads,
"To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?"
Then we have 2 Nephi 1:14:
"Awake! and arise from the dust, and hear the words of a trembling parent, whose limbs ye must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave, from whence no traveler can return; a few more days and I go the way of all the earth."
In short, the parts that bear a resemblance are simply, "no traveller returns" and "no traveler can return."
Anyone who shows up at a temple meeting with references to exact lines in the BoM and Shakespeare is obviously someone who's come prepared to bash, particularly if they only get one shot and somehow think that's the most important insight they could have into the Book of Mormon. The anonymous author posits some ideas about what could account for the similarity, though it's so small that it doesn't need to be accounted for at all. "No traveller returns" vs. "no traveler can return." Wow. It's just not possible that two people in the history of Earth could ever use the word "traveler" to refer to someone journeying through mortality, or point out that there is no return to mortality from the grave.
Anyone who thinks this is a mystery worth breaking our heads over is, in my opinion, not particularly well-read, or is certainly straining to manufacture "issues." When it's dead-on obvious that Joseph Smith borrowed liberally from the phrases he was familiar with to express the thoughts he was translating, I don't even know what kind of issue that's supposed to be.
Anyway, the idea is that Elder McConkie should have treated the question seriously. But another aposte, Paul, advised in Rom. 14:1: "Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations."
In short, shutting down the "doubtful disputations" was precisely what an apostle should have done in that situation. And as for the colorful bits thrown in by the first and one later author, about Elder McConkie supposedly shouting and in another case even going red in the face, I've lived long enough to know that in retelling personal experiences, people almost always describe the event in words designed to make the reader or listener feel what they felt. And when the mundane facts don't carry the proper impact, they instinctively exaggerate, in order to carry what they feel was the honest impact of the event. And there is no doubt, Elder McConkie could rebuke powerfully! But the idea of him losing his temper, in the sense of getting red in the face and hollering, is simply beyond my ability to imagine. To whomever was on the receiving end, I'm sure his booming voice and his words of reproof felt like lashes, and sounded as loud as cannons.
For someone who isn't humble and can't bear rebuke, I'm sure such an experience would rankle terribly. Interestingly, Elder McConkie set a grand example for the rest of us, in how to accept rebuke. When he was told not to republish Mormon Doctrine, he submitted. When he was asked to republish it but to take out the Catholic-bashing parts and other PR embarrassments, he submitted. And when the voice of the Lord pronounced that blacks were eligible for the priesthood, he did indeed stand up immediately afterward and tell people to disregard whatever he had said on the subject in the past.
He held himself to the same standard that he held others to. If people didn't like being held to that standard, they at least should have the grace to recognize that it worked both ways with him. - 08/12/2007 - Preston McConkie
Very few people out of the thousands who heard the Savior speak and Prophesy at the time of his Ministry ever believed on His words (You know the History) How many thought he was actually under the influence on the Devil. Even those who called themselves Preists of the LORDS TEMPLE. And why did they not believe!! Because they had not the spirit of God. They let the Devil in their hearts, to try and defy and hinder the Work of GOD. And so let your heart no more listen to that spirit which is against the teachings of the LORD JESUS CHRIST and that of Contention. Jesus Christ was perfect, and made no mistakes is word, work, action, or deed, etc. HE had more enemies than most peolple in this world will ever have and yet he spoke ALL TRUTH. Don't let yourselves be like those who were against CHRIST. The LOrd will back up the words HE has spoken through his chosen servents throughout time. For they are HIS words if spoken by the spirit. And Bruce R McConkie was a chose man of GOD. That is all.!!!!!!! - 08/10/2007 - JOHN
I am an active member of the Mormon Church but I can not support a lot of what many of you "defenders" are saying. I'm sure that Bruce was an all right fellow in many respects, but he was a narcissitic blow hard. Have any of you heard of John W. Taylor, Mattias Cowley...and there's more, like Elder Lyman. All apostles, all disfellowshiped or X'd. If they deserved to be ousted then McConkie deserved to be double ousted. Yes, I'm sure that they're 'just human'...and maybe even wrong. McDonkie was told by the Prophet, and all of the First Presidency not to publish "Mormon Doctrine," but he went ahead and did it. He wasn't even an Apostle at the time, he was a runaway 70. According to President Marion G Romney there were over 1067 errors in "Mormon Doctrine." McConkie was NEVER the prophet, he NEVER should have been declaring doctrine, and was told as much by his superiors. He was wrong time and again and has probably done more to discredit the Church than anyone in the dispensation. I'm sure he's in heaven and I'm sure there is a hand written public notice and apology written by him and posted right out on the pearly gates. - 02/06/2007 - Frank D. Scorses aka FrankieD
I've been a member of this gospel ALL MY LIFE & never ever have i heard such interesting stories about Bruce R McConkie until today! All I have to say is that he is one of the most inspiring & great speakers for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that it is unfortunate that we have people that have nothing better to do but leave unnecessary comments on a public website. Its too bad that what you have to say may actually encourage others but i'm glad to say that i'm not one of them & neither are many other strong members of the Gospel.
In saying that, we are all entitled to our own opinions & just like Bruce R McConkie he gave us nothing but spiritual talks that would uplift & help guide us as we try to overcome the many temptations in this world. You would think that the 1/3 who chose to join Lucifer's army was enough temptation for us to resist but then you have some of the 2/3 who chose to come to earth pretty much end up joining the 1/3. Aren't you glad for the atonement of Christ and for the opportunity we have to repent of our sins??? You are entitled to your own opinions, thoughts & feelings. Bruce was a chosen prophet of God who has just as every right to preach the word of God to us & whether you like or not, that's YOUR OWN OPINION. How bout we focus on the bigger issues in the world like the many wars happening???
Proud member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - 01/18/2007 - Sharon
It is nice to see that you have posted positive comments on your site about Bruce R McConkie. I do know that no one is perfect, not even apostles, I once chauffered an apostle and his family, we visited Windsor Castle and he had a disagreement with a police officer and was less than complimentary to him. So Bruce R McConkie ammended sections of his work 'Mormon Doctrine' Big Deal! I heard his testimony before he died and have now doubts that he was a man inspired of God.
You would do better to employ your time building your own faith rather than trying to destroy other peoples. I guess it is easier to breakdown that build, Keep your hand in the Missouri river you never know it might just stop and turn back upstream, Not!!!!!! - 01/16/2007 - steveo
I cannot speak for whether he was right or wrong, but I can say this: Whether a stake president, bishop, apostle or even prophet, these men are at thier core MEN fallable as any other perhaps even more. as a member of the church I have come to that realization. And yes, the general membership are pretty high and mighty. President hinckley has repeated chided the membership for being prideful and lots of the members get the message. Its the member in Utah that are most resistent. But that is because, like any other faith, when there is a dense population of people who ascribe to the same beliefs, they tend to create this subculture within the given faith and proclaim themselves as the fortunate ones or "Gods Elect" This is wrong. What is wrong as well are members who blindly defend thier church leaders and who make them out to be perfect. A man called of God is not instantly made perfect. When people stop deifying men and start using reason hand in hand with devotion then we get somewhere. - 12/18/2006 - steve
No one can deny his testimony of Jesus Christ. No one can deny the miracles and amazing service oriented life he lived and performed. If you try, you are just covering up your own sins and lies. I suggest you repent. I testify that he was an Apostle called of God-thats all that matters. :) - 12/11/2006 - John
You are an idiot you crazy apostate! Have fun in HELL. Your time will come and you will realize the doctrine you once believed actually really true! - 10/03/2006 - Crazygurl
Your hatred will consume you (if it has`nt already). Go and do something constructive, like tear down the Baptists or Methodists, ha, ha. Seriously, get a life! - 08/05/2006 - anon
Bruce R McConkie said many things that were true but were very hard for the members or the world to digest.They were I am almost possitive said out of knowlege and inspiration and not because he despised a certain group of people or the color of thier skin.He was an Apostle of Jesus Christ. - 07/21/2006 - abe
If Bruce R. McConkie was an (explicative deleted) then I want to be an (explicative deleted) just like he was. He and his father-in-law, Joseph Fielding Smith, are my greatest gospel heros after Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith. I write a blog called The Iron Rod in honor of their approach to Mormon doctrine. You may read it at ironrod.wordpress.com. - 04/23/2006 - email@example.com name: John W. Redelfs
Bruce McConkie was a great Catholic basher, with his "church of the devil" drivel. It never occurred to McConkie to look in the mirror, and see how much like Satan he was. - 03/26/2006 - lightfingerlouie
Bruce R. McConkie wrote something in one of his books (or co-authored books) That I read 20 years ago. My husband was also aware of this statement through other means. Paraphrasing, the statement said that after a couple was through having children, abstinance from sex was suggested as spiritual growth would accelerate. Overcoming sensual feelings and replacing them with the less selfish spiritual growth.
Whether or not I agree is of no importance. I would like to think I am not crazy
thinking I read it. I can see the page, I also remember exactly what I was thinking
about it....you sound like the site with the experience and resources to find this
for me. - 09/20/2003 - from not fault-finding nor crazy
Editor's note: If any Salamander Society readers can provide the exact quote and reference, please submit in the box below
Back in the Time of Christ, the apostles were persecuted. Now in the Latter-days it is also happening because of People Like you. Bruce R. McConkie was a man of God. Your not. Your a sorry Asshole who writes Bullshit articles like this. Sorry man, but you have EVERYTHING wrong. We need to get rid of people like you in this world. Thats why we have a world of hate. People like you. So go back in your little corner and pout about your false crap. My life is the best ever since i converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and i truely feel sorry for people like you who don't have that same light that i have now. Elder McConkie was called of God.....such blasphemy as you speak can only lead to eternal damnation........ - 09/04/2003 - from firstname.lastname@example.org
It is funny, you call him an asshole, and tell of his stories. But you are the one who after all these years, still wines and cries enough to make a website about a dead man, sounds to me like you are the asshole. I suggest you get over it, you remind me the columbine killers, the type that sit in their room pissed at the entire world because you really are a loser........I am sorry man, sorry for you, and anyone who associates with you, you really are trash. Your mother did a horrible job raising you. - 08/16/2003 - anon
Bruce R. McConkie was called as an apostle for a reason. He was called of God through inspiration and revelation from the prophet at the time. Dont get me wrong, people have there own opinions. I just read Bruce R. McConkies last talk this past week and how could an uninspired man make the statements he did about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As I read that testimony, tears almost came to my eyes. Yes he was wrong about many things it seems, but why dont we look at the good in people, rather than the evil. That is all I have to say. - 07/13/2003 - anon
Why don't we look at the good in people?
Good question. The answer is simple. Mormons don't look at the good in other people. They dish it out and they won't take it.
You don't believe me? What about the idea that Mormons are the one and only true church upon the face of the whole earth with which God is pleased? McConkie was a big promoter of this fable. Do you Mormons have any idea about how much good is done in other churches, more in many cases than is done in yours? Hell no.
What about the old temple film that depicted a Protestant minister tagging the devil around? This was such a horrible lie in 99.99% of cases, that the Mormon church has finally been forced to delete it. McConkie and his cronies fought against the other leaders (including President McKay) who wanted to give the Priesthood to the Blacks as earliy as 1955. Did McKonkie ever see the good in the Blacks? His early works are so flagrantly racist that they have become collector items for anti-Mormons. McConkie published in his first volumne of Mormon Doctrine that Roman Catholicism was the great and abominable church, the whore of all the earth. He certainly was blind to the enormous good that Catholics do across the earth. His books are filled with this kind of arrogance.
Look at how you Mormons sit upon your moral high horses and make life miserable for almost every non-Mormon who lives in your beloved but over-controlled state of Utah. The only people you Mormons have any respect for are those you are deluded into thinking you might convert. But about 15 minutes after their baptismal service ends, you put them to work and turn the cold shoulder on them. This is why your retention of new members has always been in the toilet. You simply don't treat people who politely refuse to join you with any kind of decency. You actually believe that everyone who does not accept your narrow version of the gospel 100% is going straight to hell. And you say you want to look for the good in other people?
McConkie was a shining example of this kind of hypocritical behavior. Can you find a single example of him ever sincerely and unconditionally complimenting anything not directly connected to Mormonism? Did McConkie look for the good in others outside of his group? I listened to it and I interprete McConkie's last great testimony as a feeble & veiled recognition of his horrible life of arrogance and his death bed begging of Jesus to forgive him, but without sincere repentence or any hint of restitution and appology. He is in greater danger of the fires of hell than most because of the things that he said and did and he realized it at the very end.
Read the material on this site. Most of it is dripping with pain. Mormons like McConkie have deeply hurt thousands of people and then you Mormons wonder why they can't just look at the good in others? When you Mormons stop hurting so many people and honestly apologize for your long history of abuse that is so horrible that you have to hide much of it from yourselves, this website and many others like it will dry up. - 06/18/2003 - anon
In regards to the 1978 Revelation, read Mr. McConkie's article on this subject in a book entitled "The Priesthood." In his words, we are supposed to "Forget everything I have said." [referring to his racist views]. And, in this article, he shares no remorse, nor offers any apology. - 06/15/2003 - lander
Bruce R. McConkie was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. His words are sweet and his actions pure. Some may have been offended by him, but some stand in awe and admiration at his prophetic testimony. He came to offend man and shake the world with his testimony. I love him for all that he said and did. God bless his sweet soul forever. - 05/17/2003 - anon
You will be accountable.
Many of you have served missions and are apostates. You are very accountable for the things you know to be true and make a mockery of. You will answer for the lies you have told that have kept souls from the truth at the judgemant bar of God. Bruce R. Mcconkie was an apostle of the Lord. If you are offended by the things he said (not the twisted half-truths presented here) it is because the wicked take the truth to be hard (1 Nephi 16:2). Christ offended many. If you don't repent and start working righteousness you will reap the consequences of your evil actions. job 4:8 - 04/17/2003 - anon
I want to let all of you know that I know that you are down right lying about Bruce R. McConkie. I have known his family for years, ever since before he was selected as an Apostle of Jesus Christ. He has always been one of the most loving, gentle, and humble men ever to walk the earth. I know his son, who teaches Gospel Doctrine class in my ward in Colorado Springs, and his grand children. All of them are the most caring, loving people ever to walk the face of the Earth. To publicly belittle a man of his stature and knowledge is just plain sad. I was personally present when his son, Mark was confronted in the middle of Sacrament meeting one day by a visiting apostate, set on making Brother McConkie look like he was teaching false doctrine.
This son of the Apostle was most generous and gentle with this man, in public and private while discussing his problems with what he was saying from the pulpit. My father is the Bishop of my ward, and I was able to see this unfold first hand. I know that if Bruce were speaking with all of you right now, he would forgive your ignorance and pray for your salvation. To make light of his testimony and greatness shows how little you think of yourselves.
I pray you all find the truth deep inside of you and learn that to try to hurt another through evil acts of blasphemy, libel, and slander only bears your own ignorance for all to see. - 11/22/2002 - from Blake Wright-Colorado Springs
I feel sorry for you guys mocking him. I loved his heart. He was a wonderful man and a true apostle of Christ. - 09/07/2002 - Dave
Post your story or comments about Bruce R McConkie in this text box.
Home - Site Map