BYU Bruhahas - Harmonious Stories From Zion's University

The Rumor: Faculty feeling repressed, placated and policed? The Honor Code corrupted by politics? Underground secret combinations? Failed same sex attraction aversion experiments? Weekend Las Vegas marriages, consumations and annulments?

BYU the campus us our world.BYU YBU the glory of god is conformity by anonymous.

BYU diversity in cheer leaders.

BYU Bookstore Future Same Sex Sales Item

04/06/2016 by Analonymous

Touting a new progressive culture The Bookstore - Boyd K Packer Boy's Department offers the latest items for male cougars to sink their faithful fangs into. These products are Cosmo tested and approved. Available at Deseret Book 10% off with student body card.

BYU Men's Chorus play blocks.

BYU Men's Chorus play blocks instructions.

BYU Men's Chorus official drink - Ovaltine. Make sure to have plenty of The BYU Men's Chorus Official Hot Drink on hand. Ovaltine is a must for your food storage.

Ovaltine increases your vitality and stamina so much needed during those long rehearsals, performances on and off the stage and during those endless church meetings.

A large cup of Ovaltine taken prior to your next trip to the Provo Temple is guaranteed to keep you fully alert and prepared to "arise and awake" at just the right moment in your endowment session.

Ovaltine carries the coveted "General Authority Approved" label and as a testimony to its effectiveness - When is the last time you saw an apostle fall asleep during General Conference? This is assuming that you were actually awake enough to notice, let alone even care.

Ten percent discount at Deseret Book with valid student ID and current temple recommend.

Tastes great sprinkled over BYU Dairy vanilla ice cream.

Cautions: Heating your Ovaltine to over 115 degrees is breaking The Word of Wisdom hot drinks policy and will result in The Honor Code Police making a unpleasant visit and interview.

Ovaltine is NOT recommended prior to initiatory washing and anointing ordinances in the Provo Temple due to spontaneous over arousal challenges.

BYU "active" membership underground

07/23/2015 by Templar from

A non-believing "active" membership underground has existed in the Mormon Church since the days of Fawn Brodie. You would be surprised the "insider information" that's available at BYU once a person knows you can be trusted to "not rat them out". The head in the sand TBM (True Believing Mormons) students have no idea what really goes on there. I learned many things by never betraying the trust that was placed in me. To this day, I have never acted against my promises of confidentiality even when members accused me of lying.

A good ex-mo friend here in San Jose was once a member of "The Swearing Elders" made up of BYU faculty members who took Mormonism with a grain of salt. They used to get together regularly and share the truths they had uncovered. In a way, this group was a forerunner of discussion boards like this one. My friend left BYU and the Church as a result of what he learned at these meetings

Much of what Jerald Tanner published was smuggled to him by high placed individuals who had access to the hidden documents. More than once an unaddressed plain brown paper package would mysteriously appear on his doorstep containing microfilm. Jerald could never have accomplished what he did without this "insider" assistance.

Re: Any Mormon apologists quit and resign from LDS Church?

Thomas Stuart Ferguson

I knew him personally and lost my respect for him for not having the guts to come clean. He actually told me he was staying with Mormonism because he "liked to sing with the ward choir".

He felt if he were honest he would let a lot of people down. He probably meant the GA's who had given his foundation several hundred thousand dollars over the years to find "Book of Mormon Cities". Of course, he never did and as a result lost his faith in the BoM and the Church. He only admitted it in private to those he felt he could trust.

I would guess that most apologists are employed by BYU and the cost of leaving would be too great.

A fairly well known BYU authority once advised me when I was still single after I had expressed some serious doubts "to get out before you are too deeply committed and can't".

Needless to say, I followed his wise advise and saved myself years of probable grief and turmoil.

Current Life at BYU - Rampant Cognitive Dissonance

02/10/2010 by CurrentYStudent from

I'm a student here at BYU right now. Luckily enough, I'm a nonmember. Because of that, it's more or less "expected" for me to have my squabbles with the Church. But even then, I still have to be really careful about what I say.

Even I have gotten myself stuck in hour and a half long interviews with people here for publicly questioning certain doctrines. But what frustrates me is that I only publicly question doctrine when I am publicly confronted about my stance regarding it. I guess they assume that if they come at me in a large lecture class, surrounded by over a hundred strongly convicted members who happen to be my good friends, the social pressures will get me to admit that "I know this book is true" and that "Joseph Smith was a true prophet of the Lord" and that "This is His one true Church, restored to the world of man in this day for our eternal benefit."

But then when I don't break, and I tell them straight up that I think Joseph Smith lied about the Book of Mormon, they get all offended and scramble the religion professors to try to "make me see the light." It's really bogus.

Every time I land in a meeting like that, I say the same thing: "If I DIDN'T believe that Joseph Smith lied, and I DID believe he was a prophet....then wouldn't that make me a MEMBER?! I, by definition of a non-member, MUST disagree with him or I wouldn't BE a NONMEMBER!" And then they tell me that "I think we both know that you have felt it is true. You are just afraid to commit to it. And until you do, you will never know happiness." Blah blah blah.

And then we run around in circles for a long time, but this is not the topic in which I should post that kind of a conversation. They are always the same, though. Anyway, like I said: publicly calling a nonmember out on my views regarding Mormon Doctrine is WAY bogus. Kind of like when you first go to the temple, and you are given a chance to "get out now if you aren't prepared," so to speak, but no one would ACTUALLY leave because of the groupthink that compels them forward.

Sometimes it feels like that's what they are trying to apply to me in a way. But in getting back on topic.

You would be completely astounded at how many of the students here don't actually believe in the Church. Being a nonmember here, people feel as though they can confide in me to some extent regarding all of their shortcomings, sins, sources of guilt, and misgivings regarding their religion. I guess they figure that, depending on the situation, I A) Won't judge them or B) Must have "done worse" than them at some point in my life anyway so their transgressions won't sound all that bad.

Honestly, the number of BYU students who do not fully agree with Mormon Doctrine is staggering. Higher education is a wonderful thing, even at an institution such as this. It brings those who pursue it to the thresholds of constant forays into further enlightenment. I think that coming to the point of realization where a member feels that there is something....wrong...with the Church is an unavoidable side effect of such an education.

All of the students here reach a point where something clicks in their heads and they begin to question. But then, they all have to ultimately face a choice: do I follow up on my intuitive misgivings, or do I bury my head in the sand and forget that I ever thought there could be something more?

Obviously, and regrettably, the overwhelming majority of students at BYU choose the latter. And once they make that choice, The First Presidency itself could release a statement announcing that the Church was never true, and they wouldn't believe it. They have completely closed off their minds to any subversive suggestions regarding the Church.

The sad thing is, I have been in a room before where I have watched a group of about five of my friends all discussing how wonderful the Church is...when EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM had, at one point or another, come to me in confidence to tell me how miserable they were with it. The rampant cognitive dissonance at BYU is a very hard thing to watch.

STIMULATION.. bizarre BYU experiences

08/25/2009 by coffeelover and others from

One Sunday in Relief Society we were told the bishop was coming to give us the "Chastity Talk". Unfortunately, my 2 roommates and I had chosen to sit in the front row. So the bishop walks up and stands right in front of us- maybe 2 feet away- and proceeds to clearly outline the Law of Chastity. He had a very monotone voice, much like that of Ferris Bueler's teacher (aka the Clear Eyes guy). He kept saying "any form of STIM-U-LATION is considered sinful"... for some reason my roommates and I found it incredibly funny and had to stifle laughter through the whole thing.

And a separate but equally odd BYU experience:

I had to take HEPE (Wellness) as a GE requirement my freshman year. For 1 week, a sex ed teacher was assigned to come in and teach us about the birds and the bees. And the first day of that week, the teacher- a 40-something, chubby grandma-sweater wearing lady with braces, bless her heart- walks up to the front of the class and announces that she is a virgin! WHERE ELSE BUT BYU?!!!! And when a guy in the class asked why she became a sex ed teacher, her response was "well you don't have to smoke marijuana to know its affects, and you don't have to have sex to know how it works!"

Seriously... what kind of celibate person would torture themselves by talking about sex all day??

And 2 more funny little tidbits:

One day I walked into the BYU employment office and they had a promotional poster hanging above the applications, with a tootsie pop depicted, that read "How many licks does it take to get hired?" (really people... come on... are you even aware of how you sound?)

And when I worked in a BYU cafeteria, their customer service motto was "Give 'em the Pickle!" Don't even ask me about that one...

Like a Quaker teaching ROTC - by Bob T

Frank's vagina - by DNA

In my health class one day the teacher came in and in a more serious tone than usual said, "today we are going to have a frank discussion about the vagina". I raised my hand and said, "Do you have pictures?"

Why would you want pictures of Frank's vagina? - by geneticerror

Endowed vs. Unendowed - by Murky Aura

My friends and I (one of whom was at least a DD cup) could never keep straight faces during the many discussion about the "endowed" and "unendowed" at YBU.

We will go down - by SuzieQ#1

The naivity of the teachers is astounding--- not a clue!

I often wondered why the changed the temple dialog: "we will go down" repeated by Peter James and John -- to only one time. But once was enough! :-)

So many bowed heads! Nobody wanted to look at anyone for fear of laughing!

eye level to some man's crotch - by Mormon Observer

OMG that first paragraph made the dirt side of my mind go off!! I'd hate to be at eye level to some man's crotch two feet away from me sitting down while he is lecturing the entire room!! On non-stimulation and chastity no less!!

You would get a crick in your neck looking up into his face, you can't look streight in front of you. . . gag. then I guess you need to bow your head and study the backs of your hands and give the impression of being the subservient who 'bowed her head and said yes"

How you ever stifled your giggles I don't know!!!!

Our tired necks - by coffeelover

I KNOW! Our necks got tired... there wasn't much space between the front row and the white board...

It was one of the most singularly strange times of my life!

Me time - by Merovea

Your virgin sex eduction teacher knew how "it" works...because she had a lot of "Me" time!

40-something by anonymouse

I had to take HEPE (Wellness) as a GE requirement my freshman year. For 1 week, a sex ed teacher was assigned to come in and teach us about the birds and the bees. And the first day of that week, the teacher- a 40-something, chubby grandma-sweater wearing lady with braces, bless her heart- walks up to the front of the class and announces that she is a virgin!

WHERE ELSE BUT BYU?!!!! And when a guy in the class asked why she became a sex ed teacher, her response was "well you don't have to smoke marijuana to know its affects, and you don't have to have sex to know how it works!"

Make sure I remained clean. - by Crathes

When as a Senior at BYU, I told my BYU Bishop that I was engaged, he insisted that I meet with him to discuss my "behavior". The engagement was to be nearly a year (bad move), so he wanted to make sure I remained clean.

He told me (and I kid you not) that if I became aroused in any way with my fiance, that I was quickly becoming impure. Hmmm. Seems to be even thinking of her should make me aroused. I mean, hell, I should be attracked to her, right? In all ways? He was also VERY specific about what he meant by aroused.

Please remember, at the age of 23, any male should get aroused easily. Duh! Since he was such a dour, sour old fart, my fiance (now wife of 26 year) decided not to invite him to the wedding (SL Temple) or even the reception.

I did not consider him a friend in any way. So, a few weeks before graduation and the wedding, he called me in for an appointment, the purpose of which was to let me know he had not received his wedding invitation. I told him it must be lost in the mail and I would get him another one. Never did.

I am glad I still get aroused with my wife.

SHAME on them. - by Debbie the Rebbie

Once when I was attending YBU, I was sitting on a bench on campus minding my own business, when a young man of the mighty BYU security patrol, stopped his cart by me, and informed me that my skirt was too short and that I was being immodest. I was so mortified. After he left, I got up and was walking away when he approached me again, and said, on second look, you look just fine!

Talk about a young man with mixed (up) emotions! And this laid another seed in me about how narrow my path must be in order to not be offending the brethren.

My future husband seemed to be normally aroused by me -- until we got sealed. He then seemed to be greatly embarrassed by the whole sex thing, and after our baby was conceived he never again acted sexual around me. What a waste! He was built and so handsome and we were a beautiful pair. And the church indoctrination of shame about what comes naturally (or should) -- ruined our sexlife and eventually our marriage.

SHAME on them.

side note: I met a lot of dry humpers at YBU

Not so dry for the guy - by Crathes

Ah yes, dry humping. Not so dry for the guy. Also known as Levi Lovin'.

Univerally decried by purveyors of religion as a degrading substitute for the sacred act of procreation.

yup. that one was particularly awkward to confess to the bishop. - by coffeelover

"ok sister, what is it that happened between you?"

"well, bishop... he... he... dry humped me."

Sometimes I'd cry from the sheer embarrassment of having to say it.

Stupid Modesty Contradictions

02/25/2008 by I Finally Left and others from

Okay, so I grew up in Hawaii, spending a lot of time on the beach, in shorts, and around people casually dressed in shorts, t-shirts, tank tops, and of course, swim suits. This may have contributed to my struggle to believe / understand how wearing a swimsuit on the beach was "okay" (as evidenced at ward beach parties, as all of us bared our shoulders and legs), but then how, away from the beach, exposing your shoulders, back, or thighs was immodest. Being a faithful TBM, I was always trying to talk myself into reasons why one was okay but the other wasn't.

Then at BYU Provo, I saw more contradictions as I saw BYU ballroom dancers, cheerleaders, and other athletes (many of them return mishies) routinely wearing non-garmentable, or otherwise "immodest" clothing - at church sponsored events! It just seemed strange to me that BYU had this strict dress standard which then was routinely broken if the "reasons" were right. Isn't modesty 'modesty,' regardless of where you are or what you're doing?

Then of course, you have submissive, silent, beautiful Eve in the temple video (in the temple - hello!) baring her shoulders.

Then there was the movie which came out around 10 years ago at the Joseph Smith Center - the one about Christ in America. The stars of the show are a beautifully muscular, near bare chested young man and a beautiful, south-american looking young woman wearing a non-garmentable dress. I guess even the church knows that sex sells.

SO, SO glad to be out of this cog-dis game!!!

Re: Stupid Modesty Contradictions - by Flecher

After Eve saw the snake..the Priesthood was invented to compensate for Man's shortcomings.

Burlap - by I finally left

Oh, that's right - they did get all modest after that, didnt'they, in their burlap sack dresses. And then they got to play that fun little handshake game with Peter, James and John.

Remove our underwear - by Cali in Utah

I grew up on the beaches of California, and wore bikinis (not string bikinis, though) which covered what they were supposed to cover. The most immodest thing I ever wore in my life was the standard issue swimsuit that the BYU Richards PE Building swimming pool demanded we wear. We innocent little freshman girls went to a YM/YW party at the pool. I was between sizes, and I had a choice of having a suit that hung way too low in the front, or a suit so small that it didn't come up high enough. The suit material was so thin, that you could see every goose-bump, so we girls all wore our bras and panties under the suits. As we walked out of the dressing room, the matron pointed to a sign that said, "For sanitary reasons, no underwear is allowed under the swimsuits."

We had to go back and remove our underwear. When our suits got wet, it was even worse, and the guys--who also weren't allowed to wear underwear--were getting turned on. I was 17, and so pure that I had never even made out with a boy, and I got an entire sex education that evening! My friends and I were horrified, and went back into the dressing room, and put our bras and panties on OVER our bathing suits, and came prancing back out. We were covered up, and confident enough to dive off the boards. We got in all kinds of trouble for that! Our parents were notified in a letter, and my GA family had a fit. We had to go to "student court", and they threatened to expel us, but instead turned us over to our dorm authorities instead. Thus began the first of many rebellions, and punishments of having to clean the dorm bathrooms.

Morality at BYU was all about rules, and not about what I considered to be decent or polite.

I remember those - by I finally left

So funny - how bold to walk out like that with bras and panties over those hideous suits! I rember those, although I think I only went to that pool twice - the first time, around 1986, I was issued an unbelievably, hideously outdated black swimsuit, then the second time, I was surprised with the new, updated, see-through speedo-style swimsuit.

Yeah - those rules. I was always such a straight arrow, too and it cracks me up to think that I must have been viewed as "rebellious" the day I wore shorts (long shorts, 1 inch above the knee, mind you) to BYU. I still remember all the "looks." Oh, and let's not even talk about the silent concern /compassion I sensed years later when I wore a beautiful, expensive pants outfit to a ward I was visiting. Shame, shame on me for being such a "bad girl."

I used to swim laps at BYU three times a week. - by Rubicon

All of us lap swimmers had Speedos and we had big egos. I was in shape and I was one of the guys who could get away wearing a Speedo at the pool and I sometimes did.

Anyways, There would be a line of guys all in Speedos getting their BYU approved ugly swim trunks. We just viewed the extra drag would increase the workout and I remember seeing the girls in those one piecers seeing their nipples, camel toe, muff bulge ect.. Then I sometimes shared a lane with a girl and man, through my little swim goggles I saw body parts coming out of those suits. Thanks to BYU I saw bare tits and muff on some pretty good looking chicks.

And what about this? - by not now

For some reason, after my mission in the late 90's, the latest fashion trend was for girls/women to wear these EXTREMELY tight or form fitted shirts that were VERY revealing.

Sure, the shirt covered the midriff, shoulder, and back. And sure, they were high cut no cleavage would ever show.

HOWEVER, you know how wet tshirts cling to every curve of the woman? Well these were worse...not see through, but tight! I could tell exactly what color and texture the bra was that the girl was wearing. And if the bras were not could easily check out the nip-nips.

So, early 2000, I was now at BYU and these shirts became a HUGE controversy. That is because the BYUSA (Student Association) hung posters around campus to remind us of "modesty"....and as the example of "appropriate attire", they pictured a girl wearing this exact style shirt!

Personally, as a morally clean but horny RM, I LOVED these shirts. They were thin and you could really feel the girls' curves with little effort while hugging them.

Even better, another controversy started surrounding these shirts. Some self righteous males started complaining about girls who used those across-your-chest-single-strapped-backpacks. Their claim was that by wearing that strap between the bosoms, it highlighted the boobs and was a distraction to the men who were trying to remain clean. What they failed to notice was that while these backpacks did, at times, highlight a girl's boobs, it was only really noticeable with these form fitted shirts. T-shirts, sweaters, polo shirts, etc....none of them compared to the boobyliciousness of the single strap backpack and these form fitted shirts.

And here was perfect BYU using that exact shirt to promote modesty. So ironic. Did they really not see the revealing nature of the shirt? Do they not understand that being "fully covered" can be just as immodest? Or are they soooo letter of the law oriented that they become blind to the reasoning behind modesty?

Sadly, these style shirts eventually (for whatever reason) became popularly combined with low hipped jeans. That, in itself, is not bad. What made it bad is that for some reason, girls who did not fit into those style shirts started to wear them with low rise jeans. So the public got treated to large female buttcracks and (sorry but I don't know how else to describe it) belly rolls. The shirts were soooo tight that they would constantly roll up over a girl's rolls...and the jeans were so tight and low that they slipped below those same folds.

If a girl feels good and confident wearing that combo...more power to go girl. Be proud of what you got! But usually, the girls I saw wearing that combo were not confident. And yet, they were slaves to the fashion and would continue to wear them.

Ahhhhh, the joys and pressures of modesty and conformity.

LDS modesty isn't really about modesty. - by Stray Mutt

It's about obedience, conformity, control and the destruction of individual identity.

Get me outta here

02/25/2008 by sick&tired

I'm a student at BYU, and a fairly faithful member of the church. I still have a testimony of the gospel, but BYU is making me doubtful. Everyone here is SO hypocritical. I know the church is perfect, the people aren't, blah blah blah. But I have just had too many strange experiences here.

I met a guy in my chemistry class who does ecstasy and acid, and have been offered alcohol countless times. I have several friends who faked ADD to get adderall prescriptions. I know many active members who are also very sexually active. None of this bothers me.

The only problem is, these people ACT perfect while on campus. It drives me absolutely insane. It's so hypocritical. I can't handle it. Plus, I hate the pressure to get married. It's shocking how many guys have asked me why I'm wasting my time doing pre-med, since I'm just gonna drop out and get married. why is it ridiculous for an attractive young womam to get a career?

This place is insane! My roommate has been trying to turn me in too. ha. Oh, and also, I think that because the BYU guys repress their sexual feelings for so long, they either develop homosexual tendencies, or become completely asexual. GET ME OUTTA HERE!

BYU Daily Universe mislables apostles as apostates.

Happy BYU memories

02/25/2008 by Pink Cookie and others from

I made a big mistake joining the mormon church and I have a lot of regrets regarding how different my life would have been if I had not joined and gone to BYU.

When I think about it and read this board, it can make me pretty sad. So I've decided that I need to accept that I made a BIG mistake, but try to focus on some of the happy things that that journey brought into my life.

Skiing in Park City

Horseback riding in the mountains

The Bamboo Hut and the Brick Oven

Attending BYU Football games when the team was really good

Rollerblading down the Provo river trail

Some great friends I made (most from off campus)

Dancing at the Ivy Tower

Driving back from Dinasaur in the middle of the night and stopping in the middle of nowhere just to look at all the stars in the sky

Each little town having its own rodeo in the summer

The giant ground sloth in the science building

And, of course, yummy pink cookies at all the convenience stores...

Here are mine - convertinginreverse

Going up in the canyon for bonfires with my friends and stargazing.

Playing board games with my best friend.

A few classes I quite enjoyed. I had one religion prof. who was HILARIOUS. Though, sometimes I want to e-mail him and ask him how he can peddle this stuff when he's so smart and knows so much church history.

Guru's - the veggie burrito. Oh. my. god!

Learning to enjoy football.

Staying out until 2am talking with my bf/fiance.

Freshman year antics.

Going to nutty putty caves before they blocked the entrance.

Hiking the Y in the middle of the night.

My Happy BYU memories - CA girl

Skiing at Brighton

Study Abroads (I went on 3)

Hiking to the Y and turning it blue with giant pieces of blue fabric during Homecoming

Working on the newspaper

Getting the internship I wanted after my advisor told me I was wasting my time applying and should just give up and apply to work on the Friend, the Ensign or the New Era. HA!

My so-called sorority

Mint chocolate brownies at the Cougareat.

Playing practical jokes on each other in Deseret Towers

Some of my favorites - can't log in here

being in "the most spirited" Y group (no, not holy spirited...)

walking to Movies 8 in the snow

trying to get a clever phone number (422-SEXY? Taken? How about 422-LUST? Taken? Damn. I mean darn. How about...)

sledding down Y mountain on trays we "borrowed" from the school cafeteria

drinking grasshopper shakes at the Cosmo

dreaming up clever ways to ask my guy friend out to the winter formal

"fencing" with salad strainers and slotted spoons at Shopko

watching "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" and "The Princess Bride" with my friend and a bunch of guys who sneaked into her dorm room

playing cards in the dorm lobby

getting kicked out of the cafeteria for wearing a robe to breakfast

the surprise sex-themed bachelorette party my friends threw for me ;-)

oh, and learning about all the weird mormon history that my TBM convert dad never told me about (or maybe never knew about)

It wasn't like going to a regular college, but at least I managed to have some fun.

Happy BYU memories - Benjiman Luther

Driving through virgin snow on 800 North between University Ave and 500 East at 3am.

Watching deer graze in someone's yard at 900 East and Center St early in the morning.

Taking Econ 110 from Professor Kearl. That class had nothing to do with my major, but it was one of my favorites.

Moving into my first off-campus apartment during the Christmas break and having the whole place to myself (and my girlfriend) for a few precious days. Watching old James Bond movies on TV with her and feeling like we were the only 2 people in the world.

That euphoric feeling of finishing my last final of the semester then relaxing with a good book with nothing to worry about for a few days.

Laughing at the guys in my drafting class whose semester project looked like a giant phallus.

Going into my last final of my last semester and knowing that at that point I couldn't fail the class even if I wanted to.

Doing doughnuts on snow-covered streets.

Laughing at the letters to the editor in the Daily Universe.

Happy BYU memories - forestpal

Escaping my dysfunctional family, and living in the dorms with my friends from home.

It seemed like there was a party or activity every night.

Sometimes having three different dates on a Saturday, but always knowing I loved the boy back home.

Skiing all day Saturday at Alta, and still having energy to go to a dance that night--with a sunburned face. Wondering how long I could stay at the dance before being kicked out for my strapless dress or for our dance moves--yet, because of my boyfriend back home--I was probably the purest virgin there.

I loved tennis, and my science classes. I liked studying in the spring, with the window open, and music from a dance somewhere would float in on the soft breeze. I knew that after studying, I and some other girls would drop by the party and see who was there....

Still, I wish I'd never gone to BYU. The bad was extremely bad, and my life was ruined forever. If I had left the church and BYU after those bad things happened, I probably would have been all right, but I stayed in way too long.

I loved the Bamboo Hut. - SpongeBob SquareGarments

I would crawl through 3 feet of snow to taste their delectable chicken and rib dishes. Oh, I miss it so.

Brick Oven was Heaps of Pizza. Fun place to go with roommates and dates. - Tahoe Girl

Happy BYU memories - Donna Banta

My two best friends are my former roommates from BYU. They were outsiders like me. I guess we were pretty naughty, laughing at all the Mollies, but I have fond memories of the conversations. There was so much material. We snuck into the MTC to give one last hug to a friend (a sister missionary.) Only the nametags we borrowed for our disguise read Elder. We used to play hide and seek in the old Hotel Utah--before it turned into the JS shrine. Oh, then there was the time I was proposed to after a five minute conversation. My roommate one upped me a few days later, when her date for the evening kissed her goodnight, then went to the apartment next door and proposed marriage to a girl in our home evening group. You can't make this stuff up. Worldly universities are so boring!

BYU saved me - substrate

Well, not literally, but in high school I had become this painfully shy kid with no self-confidence. When I went to BYU, I had a sudden realization: no one at BYU knew me as the shy, insecure kid I was in high school. I could be whatever I wanted to be. And so I did.

People who met me at BYU or later have a hard time believing I was ever that nearly invisible kid. At BYU I gained a lot of confidence both academically and socially.

I probably would have gone through the same realization had I gone to school elsewhere, but that's what I associated with BYU: being free to become who I wanted to be. That sounds a little weird saying that about a place like BYU, but it's true.

Losing my dry hump virginity - thusspoke

Happy BYU memories - Leslie

Unlimited pasta at Brick Oven, excellent alfredo sauce

International Cinema

Ice cream from the creamery

Looking at the fish tanks in the basement of the Widtsoe Building

Fun PE electives I took -- archery & fencing

The massive campus library, open late

Big, warm apple fritters and cold milk, grasshopper shakes - Jonny the Smoke

I suppose those are two happy memories. I used to work as the head scenic artist for the Theater Dept. back in the late 80's. When I worked early in the morning, I would stop by the cafeteria and get a warm apple fritter and a cold pint of milk and eat it as I went walked to the HFAC to go to work.

I also liked getting a grasshopper shake in the afternoon once in a while.

Driving to the next county to get a couple beers on Sunday was fun too!

BYU bishop told me to leave and never come back. I listened to him.

05/07/2007 by Charlene

I grew up in Seneca County New York (birth place of the Church). When I was four years old, my parents converted from Judaism to Mormonism. Though I was on the surface a typical good Mormon girl (Mia Maid president, Laurel president, etc.) I had many questions about the Church. I was in junior high school when I was first exposed to the truth about Joseph Smith and his many (and young) wives.

As I encountered more and more problematic things with the Church I tried to reassure myself that for now I just needed to rely on faith and then God would tell me everything when I reached the Celestial Kingdom.

Like a good girl, I went to BYU. This was the biggest eye-opener of my life. I was exposed to doctrine that shocked me, and very often this doctrine was being preached from one of our religion courses.

Some examples of the trash I had to hear: Mother Teresa is not going to the Celestial Kingdom because she hasn't married, and no woman can get into heaven without a husband; The reason blacks got the priesthood in the '70s was because in the preexistence whites were more valiant than non-whites, but God ran out of white "molds" and had to put righteous spirits in black bodies; German Mormons who supported Hitler were righteous, because they were following the Articles of Faith--supporting the laws of their land; God had sex with Mary to produce Jesus (and in heaven all the men get multiple wives--the more the merrier); God gave men the priesthood and women the ability to give birth (the same way he did to female rats, cats, skunks, etc.). I could go on and on for hours about the horrible things I heard.

Then there was the atmosphere at BYU itself. I was very ill physically and had to undergo several surgeries. Needless to say, I couldn't always attend Church. I received many notices that this lack of attendance was jeopardizing my ability to remain a BYU student. When I explained my health problems, I was told that if I had enough faith, I could go to Church anyway.

I was full of a great deal of confusion after my freshman year, but I returned for my sophomore year determined that I could keep my faith until I solved all these hypocrisies in the Church.

By then (1995) BYU was becoming more and more of a police state. I had decided to become a physician after my health problems and I was taking some third year level microbiology courses. The first day of school, I walked in and sat down in the lecture hall.

All of a sudden, I felt eyes on me. I looked around and realized I was the only woman in the class. Then, the professor walked in. He glared at me and loudly demanded to know what I was doing there. I told him I was there for Microbiology 3--. He demanded to know if I had taken the prerequisite courses.

I assured him I had. He then asked if I knew that the class was supposed to be for pre-med students. I said yes, and I was pre-med. He gave me a glare and told the class "Well, I guess she can be here, then".

The guys began laughing and saying that I was just there to catch a husband who was going to be a doctor, and therefore rich. I was able to hold back my tears until I got home. Things went from bad to worse.

I was actually threatened by students in my Chemistry lab when they found out I had the second highest grade. They said that it was wrong for a girl to screw up their curve. A guy I had been dating occasionally gave me a note saying he could no longer date me after he found out I had gotten a higher grade on a chem test than he had--it was against God's plan.

Then, BYU began to crack down even more. They announced that beginning in April '96 people would have to sign a form indicating that they would turn people in who were violating the so-called Honor Code. Some of my family escaped (and some were not so lucky) from Hitler during the War, so I was no stranger to the effects of Nazi-Gestapo tactics.

I knew that I would never sign such a thing. I began applying to other schools to transfer as soon as possible. Meanwhile, a person I knew had her first taste of the Gestapo atmosphere: She was a typical naive Utah Mormon, all excited because a GUY had come up to her on campus.

He said "Hi" and asked her where she was going. She told him and he said he'd walk her to class. On the way he asked her what her name was, where she was from, where she lived, her major, and her phone #. When they reached her class he stopped and said "I just wanted to let you know--I'm a member of the Honor Code committee and you've given me all the information I need to turn you in--your skirt is too short."

A roommate of mine was assaulted by our Elder's Quorum president. But she was the one considered to be at fault, because at BYU everyone knows no woman has a sex drive, and so if anything happens she must have seduced the guy.

I don't want to keep going on and on, because the horrors about BYU would take up volumes and volumes.

By now, I was having serious problems with the Church. After a great deal of scripture reading and heartfelt prayer, I went to my Bishop. I explained my problems with the way things were. He asked if I'd prayed and I told him I had. Then he asked if I'd prayed so that if God said that everything I had questioned (racism, sexism, etc.) was as I had been taught at BYU that I'd stop being disobedient (i.e., pre-med).

I said that if God was that nasty and cruel, then I would say to God, "No thank you, I think I'll live in Hell." [Big mistake, Mormons can't stand that word.] The bishop said that was where I was headed and told me to leave and never come back. I listened to him. :)

Top Ten Rejected BYU Mottos

12/11/2006 - by substrate

10. Enter to Be Indoctrinated; Go Forth to Breed

9. Electroshock-free since 1996

8. Please remove facial hair and critical thinking skills before entering

7. Where it's always 1955

6. Home of Sparkling Yogurt (A BYU Dairy Products Lab invention that they sell at the BYU Creamery. It's essentially what you would expect: custard-style yogurt injected with carbonation, so it fizzes when you put in into your mouth.)

5. It's Not a Lie If You Believe It

4. Arbeit Macht Frei

3. Harvard for the Superstitious

2. Closing Minds One Freshman at a Time

1. Don't Intellectualize the Gospel

Very un-PC Top Ten Rejected BYU Mottos

12/11/2006 - by T-bone

10. Bring the girls, and Bring 'em Young!

9. Where sweet spirits prepare for a life of misery

8. If you can't be with the one you love, marry the one you're with

7. Never give meat when milk will do

6. Why get an education when you can get married?

5. Get your Mrs. degree!

4. Home of Levi Love

3. Bow your head and say, "Ba-a-a-a-a."

2. Truth-free since 1875

1. We don't discriminate against homos or faggots

More Top Ten Rejected BYU Mottos

12/11/2006 - by JW the Inquizzinator

10) Do it in the Mountains by Heck

9) Word of Wisdom University..WoW! U

8) Dry Hump U 4 U

7) Exploring the Known Mormon World By Direction

6) Where a date usually means "I Do"

5) Discover 101 Uses for Green Jello

4) New Book Added to the Library Every Year!

3) Arrogant by Choice and Priesthood

2) Hives of Bees and Day Care Fees...only at the Y!

1) You can SEE with Our Stones!

Steve Young - Awake and arise and pray

11/26/2006 - Spiritual&Spirited

My sister dated a guy on the BYU football team back in Steve's day there and one Sunday Fast Sunday after an away game, there was a lull in middle of the meeting. Gordon Hudson (tight end) was sitting by Elder Young, who'd fallen asleep. So Gordy elbowed him and told him he'd just been called to give the closing prayer. AND HE DID!

The bishop didn't think it was funny and had someone else provide a re-opening prayer and continued the meeting!

What it's really like to go to BYU: a poem about alienation

11/23/2006 - the red pill

A friend wrote this poem for me as a way of relating to the frustration I feel here at BYU as a closet exmo. I think it really captures the estrangement of the disillusioned individual from her own identity and the imperialistic domination of the school over both thoughts and emotions. He put it in words far better than I ever could.


I roam through the streets of depravity
In a cave of offices and lecture halls
The air is cold
the days are dark
Though crowds surround me, I am alone

An eerie wave pervades
a silent frequency of control
tuned in are android robots
in knee length shorts
and meaningless smiles

I wander to the town meeting
Follow the crowd languidly through the door
a snake in shirt an tie at the pulpit
He welcomes all who enter
and makes shadow puppets on the wall

He hisses warnings of danger
lurking everywhere says he
Worst of all you cannot love
for they say you can get pregnant
just by looking

I can't escape their judgment
thought police 'round every corner
My emotions are not mine to keep
and identity is long forgotten
What's left of me is no longer human

As I linger in their midst
I want nothing more than to feel again
For someone close who understands
To no longer be a stranger
around so many friends

I told them NOT to put you in Deseret Towers

06/03/2006 - allegro

Deseret Towers at BYU. I was a convert from Ann Arbor and wanted to do the whole Mormon thing so in the summer of 1977 or 78, I went to BYU. They had put me in Deseret Towers, and when I walked in all these guys were hanging out. I was tall, long blonde hair and had a "bitchin" body. Anyway, I was reading the board and a group of guys came up snickering and asked if I was here for my Mrs. degree. Not knowing what that was, I said no, I wasn't in grad school yet and was here for my BA. What was the Mrs degree?. They were visibly embarrassed and began to walk away-then I figured it out, got infront of them and verbally ripped them to shreds. Needless to say no dates for me.

Deseret Towers at BYU. Then, no one would cross against the lights. There was not a car in site and I began to cross. My roommates grabbed me and said that would be breaking the law and I was sinning if I cross.

Oh and speaking about crosses. My Dad gave me a small cross before he died that I wore. I was really put down for that.

Morris Center - Deseret Towers at BYU. One more thing(there are so many). My roommates and other girls would talk about potato chips alot and how much they wanted them. I figured out, after a month, that was a code word for sex. Well, I had been sexually active for about 2 years and I did not think the abstinence thing was taken that seriously. I said, lets go out this weekend with some guys and have fun. We could take turns in the room and come up with a signal if one of us was "busy". They were horrified, I said what? you all want sex, lets have sex. My roommates asked for a transfer and I got a talking to from this Christianson person (some one high up at the school).

I went back home and told the Branch President that I wanted to be ex'ed. This was a cult. The BP (I kid you not) put his head in his hands and shaking his head said "I told them NOT to put you in Deseret Towers". Repeated 3 times.

The Ice House

04/02/2006 - platypuspup

Ice House in Provo Utah 1970's. When I went to the Y in the early 70's I was a very naive but attractive young girl. I really enjoyed the attention from guys as my home life had been very lacking. (I had basically raised myself due to my mother's mental illness.)

Initially, I was really surprised at how much they reminded me of octopui. After I got over the initial 'dating marathon', I got involved with a RM who introduced me to heavy petting. I was so naive, that I figured if a RM did it, then it must be okay, even though I felt bad about it.

The amusing aspect of this was...after I dumped him, he turned me in to my bishop in my home ward! The next amusing thing was...this bishop, who was a really nice man, ended up being exed for an affair.

Then, I started hanging out with girls at the Y that were partying types. We went to the Ice House all the time dancing. Remember the Icehouse?

I was really surpised when we went to a party with athletes, as they were drinking. My naive eyes were opened at BYU, and I'm glad to read other stories, as I have always felt bad about the things I had done when I was young. Maybe I wasn't so bad after all!

Top ten (plus more) things Jesus heard when he visited BYU

02/02/2006 - runtu and others from Recovery from Mormonism

10. Dude, get a haircut.

9. I'm sorry, you can't go in the testing center until you shave.

8. No, sorry. It will have to be bread and Y sparkle.

7. You're right. I think Satan did come up with the idea for sparkling yogurt.

6. You're 33 and not married? You better talk to your bishop.

5. No, that's not a whited sepulchre. It's the Joseph Smith Building.

4. I'm sorry, but we don't let just anyone into the special collections section of the library. There's some sensitive stuff in there.

3. What? You've never heard of Gordon B. Hinckley?

2. I love your posts on the FAIR boards.

1. It's nice having you here, Lord, but we were kind of hoping to see Joseph Smith. - runtu

I'm sorry, but you can't wear those flip flops in here! - msnobody

What are you talking about? No one at BYU says "I'm sorry" before chastising you. They all think it's their duty to call everyone to repentance. - Aloysius

Now, really, get something that covers your chest and feet. - T-bone

Look at that dude in the robe and sandals. He must be gay.

Get a haircut, hippie! - dick

Show me your "beard card.

You're not from around these parts are you?

Hold out your hand and I'll share my Skittles with you. Oh, Fetch! You keep dropping them! - NumLock

What if Jesus got called as the ward organist (cussing)

"Bishop, I would love to play the organ, but in case you didn't notice, my hands are ALL FUCKED UP!" - dick

What do you mean I can't throw the first stone? - AxelDC

You really should have spoken MORE about tithing you know.

What is this something for nothing crap...gracie.

Why no crosses? because we really don't want to think about that..and could you cover up those bloody holes PLEASE...jeeez.

Hey, where's your apron and pizza hat?

You must be looking for the international's a ticket to Hawaii.

Are you the one that turned the water cooler water into wine? Come here wise guy.

What do you mean you don't know the secret handshake? - JW the Inquizzinator

Whaddya mean, this is your first visit to America". - Glo

Ferchrissakes shave off that beard!! - Barber

What, Jesus? You haven't heard of temple garments OR the sacred symbols?

Jesus, Lord, sir, could you please tell me why you are laughing so much? Is it something I said? - Matt

BYU t-shirt appropriate.

LDS espionage in Semester Abroad

11/18/2005 - sugar

While I was at BYU I spent a semester abroad in the Dominican Republic (within the last 5 years). At the conclusion of the trip we found out that one of the students on the trip was actually sent there (her entire 4 month trip, as well as tuition, was paid) by the Honor Code office. She reported back on any infractions she saw, whether it was someone being out too late, getting frisky with the locals, drinking or not attending meetings. They sent her as a student knowing that she would be one of us and know about all of our misdeeds. It was a great mystery as to who was giving up all our secrets until she was forced to come clean near the end of our trip. Surprisingly, most of the students (even those who were punished thanks to her info) APOLOGIZED to her for causing her to worry! I thought this was odd at the time and mentioned it, but was quickly reminded that the church was just trying to keep us safe from harm.

Funny. The weren't too concerned when I went on splits with one of the sisters to the slums, knocking on doors in the dark, stepping over hypodermic needles and "teaching" drunk flirts. I guess the Holy Ghost was supposed to keep us from being raped in the slums, and the spy was to keep us safe from other students at the school?

BYU t-shirt no questions.

Guess the Lord is no longer a Mormon

10/22/2005 - Observer

I guess the Lord is no longer a Mormon , otherwise he wouldn't have let his football team get beat by the Catholics today.

Notre Dame 49 - BYU 23

Bruce R McConkie must be spinning in his grave because another Mother of all harlots school beat the Lord's University. That makes BYU 0-3 vs abomination sponsored institutions this year.

Boston College 20 - BYU 3

Texas Christian University 51 - BYU 50

BYU t-shirt what's my opinion?

Thanks, LDS church, for allowing a young lady like me the opportunity to serve a mission.

10/15/2005 - anon

I saw a counselor while at BYU. I was being treated for depression during my freshmen year, considering the following circumstances: both of my parents were killed in an auto accident over Christmas break, and my brother committed suicide. Who wouldn't be depressed? All in all, I recovered fairly well and went about leading a productive and relatively well-adjusted life. We all have trials and I became a much stronger person because of what happened.

So FLASH FORWARD three more years... I decided to serve a mission and was called to serve in Japan, in the same area where ALL of my mother's non-member family live. So I'm in the MTC, doing well, learning the language, being a good missionary.

UNTIL the day I get called into the MTC president's office and he tells me that I have to undergo a psychological evaluation, which I 'passed' with flying colors. His wife calls me into her office, where she accuses me of "manipulating" the evaluation. She tells me that they reviewed my counseling records from BYU (3 years prior), and came to the conclusion that I was psychologically unfit to serve a msision. They sent me home on a plane later that night.

I sacrificed and saved nearly all of the money to pay for my mission; and I paid it up front, so I was out almost $9,000. I gave up my apartment, car, job, and all of my earthly belongings to serve this mission. When they sent me home, I was basically homeless because I had no parents or living family, no house, no apartment, and no money. They wouldn't let me stay in Provo (where all of my friends were, and where I could almost certainly find a place to stay until I got back on my feet).

No, they flew me to California, where I was homeless, living in and out of shelters for months. My homeward bishop did nothing because he said I belonged to my BYU bishop. My BYU bishop said he had no stewardship over me because I was in California. BYU would not let me back in school because they said I had to have "6 months of good mental health documented by a licensed physician." I didn't have food or shelter, so health insurance was pretty much out of the question.

Thanks, LDS church, for allowing a young lady like me the opportunity to serve a mission.

BYU t-shirt seeking permission.

A few more reasons to hate "The Lord's University"

10/11/2005 - by anon for now

#1. I am a BYU student in good ol' Provo, which is Mormon ground zero. I spent the weekend at my parents' house, which is about 500 miles away, and got back a few hours ago. I have very little food in the fridge and would like to go grocery shopping now, while I have time, instead of tomarrow when I'm busier than god knows what. However, I am afraid that if I go shopping my roommates will see me carrying the shopping bags, report to the bishop that I broke the sabbath, and then he will report to the Honor Code Nazis that I'm not living worthily, and then I'll lose my scholarship, get kicked out of school, and have to flip hamburgers to put myself through community college.

#2. BYU mandates that all students have health insurance, and should you fail to provide private insurance for yourself, you are involuntarily enrolled in and required to pay for BYU provided health insurance. Under BYU insurance, you are only allowed to receive care at the BYU health center. Well, of course BYU only employs mormon doctors, including mental health care workers, so trying to talk to a therapist is no frickin better than talking to your bishop, and the insurance company absolutely will not pay for any other providers

Is this messed up or what? Can anybody say CULT!!!???

Having Sex while in the BYU Singles Wards & the various repentance sentences

12/23/2004 - by Noggin and others

I wondered how many others who also may have attended BYU singles wards had similar/dissimilar experiences.

I know for a fact that both of my roommates (RM's - Returned Missionaries)had sex with their girlfriends while we attended the BYU 120th Single's Ward. One of them did "the deed" and repented and then... dang it!... did "the deed" again and hauled himself with much self-flogging to the bishop's office for more repentance. The bishop told him (paraphrased),

"Look, I can excommunicate you if you need to get more serious about not having sex"

That is a strange way to put it. Suffice it to say he did not get exed... or probation. One roomie got probation and (as I just said)the other who was guilty of doing "the deed" twice did not even get probation. But he was required to read a few guilt-inducing church pamphlets. What gives with that?

The bishop told him that if he had to excommunicate every couple in the ward that had sex before marriage there would practically be a dearth of persons to do the callings. Upon hearing this explanation, I chewed on that little nugget for a loooooong time. I found it very odd. I don't know if I really believe the bishop said it.

Then a year or so later a childhood friend of mine (who was also an RM) from California had the proverbial accidental experience of...

"OOPS!-It-Went-In-Sex" with his fiance'. All he merely intended to do was just "dance around the entrance a bit" while in his living on the edge hormonally induced moment of madness with the fiance'. He was dragged into church court when the fiance' exposed what had happened and he was promptly exed. Fiance', not temple endowed, was placed on probation... oh and was required to read not just the guilt-inducing church pamphlets but... since this happened in California... she also had to read --- GASP!!---

by Spencer W Kimball!

I know! Tell me about it! Horrible huh? I think I would have rather ben exed personally.

I mean with the "OOPS-It-Went-In" sex, the poor fellow didn't even get to enjoy it! Oh and he was so angstified!

(Is that not a hilarious description of the probably all too common RM sex? You have to admit that is funny!)

I have a few more examples but I think I have made my point. And just in case you didn't get the point... it is that the "spirit" is very capricious in its judiciousness as to punishments for RM's who have sex and whatnot.

Basically, my observation is that the further one gets away from Salt Lake City in miles, the more hard core and militant and by the book the punishment for RM's who have sex seems to be. Spirit Shmeerit.

Yep been there too.

I caught roommates at BYU in bed with their girls on two different occasions. I just backed out of the room, shut the door and went back to my own business. - 03/26/2005 - brandnewtatoo

Didn't actually do the deed but...

After some heavy petting with my girlfriend she went to confess to her bishop- different ward. Then her bishop called me in for a 'chat'. I don't know if he just wanted to hear the intimate details from two sources or what. I remember thinking at the time that "dude, you don't have any authority over me" but that didn't stop him. At the time I was at YBU as an RM and really wanted to marry the girl. But because we couldn't keep our hands off each other we kind of agreed to stop dating. I was totally devestated to hear that she was getting married four months later.

I don't recall exactly what the punishment was but is wasn't much. - 03/25/2005 - Stunted

When I was in a BYU single's ward...

My fiance (now ex wife) and I did the nasty about a hundred times, and when we confessed, all we had to do was not take the sacrament for a month.

My dad was a bishop on campus (not my bishop, thank goodness!), and he used to say that if it wasn't for oral sex, nearly every student would be temple worthy. - 03/25/2005 - Howard Roark

I was lucky.

I had really good roomates at BYU that knew I was partaking of the forbidden fruit with my girlfriends. We were all RM's but just didn't seem to care. If you're out there Lloyd and Dan I still think you were the coolest roommates ever.

I still can't believe how lucky I was to get randomly paired up with those guys. Every other apartment around us the guys acted like the police with each other. A couple of guys I know were kicked out of BYU for just sleeping - and that's all it was - over at their GFs.

It really did depend on who your roommates were as to how much you were able to get away with at BYU. - 03/25/2005 - TheRyeGuy

I had sex

with my girlfriend up until the night before she left for the MTC (Missionary Training Center), she had already been set apart. - 03/25/2005 - chuck

Not at BYU, but another university ward

after confessing to the bishop he told me it was "no big deal" and not to worry about it. No probation, no pamphlets, no nothing. - 03/25/2005 - wanda

My Campus Crusader Roomie

I went to a non-LDS school and my "Christian" roommate and his "Christian" girlfriend who were both heavy into Campus Crusade for Christ used to bang like bunnies! Once while I was in the room. It woke me up. Geez was that embarrassing. - 03/25/2005 - Anony Dude

Sheesh, was I the only one too scared to do it?

I had quite a few opportunities... but that was "the line" that I had to stop at, until I met my lovely wife. All the BIC indoctrination worked on me. My wife and I did fool around before we were officially married, but year-long engagements are just torture for that kinda thing :-)

I can understand why others might think it was kinda silly -- but there are some good health (mental & physical) reasons to refrain, or at least to discriminate. I think the Southpark episode about Paris Hilton sums it up quite nicely. - 03/25/2005 - ink

The whisperings of the spirit = abuse

The extreme latitude of "the Spirit" giving a simple pat on the back to one, and exing the hell out of another, reducing his/her life to social/emotional shambles as a result helped convince me that it was all a sham.

The whisperings of the spirit have been responsible for many atrocities, including the church getting sued for millions for sexual abuse and wranglings w/ the boy scouts, etc. Either the church will wise up and not rely on the spirit by instituting procedural safeguards or at least quit being the middle-man in some moral spheres.

The church should take a lesson from other churches and/or the gov't constitutional law. - 03/25/2005 - Squid

My bishop was pretty cool.

This was at my home ward not BYU, thank God I never went there. My then fiance and I went to confess that we had done the dirty, since we wanted to be married in the temple. We were both thinking we would have to wait months and months to be pronounced 'clean' again. All my bishop said was, "You're not pregnant are you?" No. "Can you shorten your engagement?" Yeah. That was it. No guilt trips, no assigments to read scriptures or Miracle of Forgiveness, nothing. - 03/26/2005 - anon

Huge gripe

Yep, this is a huge gripe I have with the church.

I had a girlfriend (non-member) in high school and we did the deed many times over 4 years. I'm talking less than 20 times, but still.

I hadn't been to the temple yet & this is before my mission.

My girlfriend and I broke up and after a year, I decided better confess & go on a mission, mainly because I was going no where fast after high school. :)

I was hauled into a full-paneled bishop's court, both counselors, a secretary & both my parents. It was humiliating, degrading. I bawled like a baby because I honestly felt bad for breaking the commandments & "making Jesus suffer more".

I wasn't ex-ed but I was disfellowshipped for about a year. A freakin' year, I could pray, talk, take the sacrament, nothing but HAD to attend ALL the meetings. I finally got through it and was able to go on a mission.

Good thing too because I met my wife on the mission (foreign mission). We've been married for 10 years now & have a beautiful almost-9 year old daughter & a almost-7 year old son! If I hadn't gone on the mission, I wouldn't have met her!

Anyways, where I work, there are several other mormons and we get together and chat about life & our history. Turns out a couple of the other guys were RM's, living in UT going to college & they fornicated tons of times AFTER the mission, AFTER being through the temple & covenants. The worst punishment they got was, "no sacrament, no tithe paying for a month".

I am so pissed at this system and how unfair it is. Either they are covenants & you can't break them without serious consequences or "f" the covenants & they are no consequences, but EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY BY THE SAME RULES!

Had I known that "Utah Mormon Justice" was considerably more lenient, I would have moved & then confessed my sins!

I don't think I'll get over this until I officially check out of the morg (slang for Mormon Church)! - 03/25/2005 - AZanon

Damage my father caused

Having read the personal stories here I can only imagine the damage my father did as branch president at one of the BYU student wards. Such a black and white personality with little compassion, at least from my experience, probably contributed to some of these sad commentaries. I also suspect him of being one of those "leaders" turned on by the juicy tidbits in the confessions. Pious in public, a pervert in private. Sad, sad, sad. - 03/25/2005 - Wallking in Darkness

My story

When I was at the Y, I didn't go all the way, but did pretty much everything else. My GF had no concscience about it, but I was an RM and expected more from myself so I confessed. The bishop was cool. I was really surprised because I thought I was a goner. He didn't even contact her bishop.

Well, one of my room mates knew about it and was heartened by my experience because he and his GF were always messing around. I don't know if they went all the way or not, but he went in and finally confessed. He got hauled in front of a church court. Same bishop and everything. I couldn't believe it. He only went in because I had been treated so leniently. - 03/25/2005 - Zim

Dating Black man 1980-81

03/01/2005 - by anon

When I attended the "Y" in 1980-81, I was a naive freshman that just wanted to fit in. Unfortunately, I was dating a black man (I am white) and my bishop asked me to turn in this "predator". I never did and was later sent home to think about my "choices".

Also, during this time of extreme stress-my roommate told the bishop I was severly depressed (I was not) and that I was going to commit suicide (not true). I then had to go to the psychologist and begin counseling.

He told me I was gay and may need bio-feedback to conquer my wayward thoughts. Hello?I am dating a MAN. When talking with other women my age-I found out that I wasn't the only one that was told they were "gay" and needed bio-feedback.. All from the same psychologist...hmmmm..

Also, it was well-known that if a woman put a tennis racket in her window sill--she was "available".

Brand new lecture series at BYU

12/23/2004 - by Tal Bachman

Daniel C. Peterson: "How My Best Intentions to Do What Was Right Got Me Trapped In a Spiral of Self-annihilation, Where I Was Forced To Defend The Church Just To Survive, So Completely Had I Come To Embody The Ideology, Destroying Myself In Order To Save Myself, Deep Down I Knowing I'm Being Dishonest But Can't Get Out And Nowhere Else To Go AAAAAUUGGGHHH".

Boyd K. Packer: "Truth: Our Mortal Foe"

Dallin H. Oaks: "A J.D. In Insanity: How I Actually Got Myself To Believe That The Burden Of Proof For The Book of Mormon Isn't On Us, But On Those Who Think Joseph Smith Wrote It, Even Though I Used To Be The Chief Justice On The Utah Supreme Court, Reviewing Things Like Capital Punishment Cases..."

Gordon Hinckley: "Prophethood By Proxy: A Look At FARMS and The Church's Gentile-Owned Public Relations Firm As Ultimate Ad Hoc 'Re-interpreters' of 'Eternal Doctrine'".

Thomas S. Monson: "The Archies: Stirring Music For The Soul"

Head of the BYU Archaeology Dept.: "No Way Out, And No Way I Can Explain It Without Getting Fired"

Richard G. Scott: "An Eight Hour Lecture On The Perverse Joy Of Boring People To Tears, No Matter How Exciting The Topic"

Louis Midgley: "Why I Love Mormonism: How The Parochial World I Live In In Allows Me To Believe I'm An 'Intellectual"

Davis Bitton: "Why The Best Way To Keep Believing Something Is True Is To 'Uncouple' Your Belief From The Whole Question Of Whether It IS True Or Not, And How Not Admit It To Yourself"

New Department Chairs at BYU Raise Ruckus

12/23/2004 - by Resignedinmay, et al

Mark E. Peterson chair at the School of African-American Studies

The Paul H. Dunn chair at the School of Creative Writing

The Fanny Alger chair at the school of Women's Studies

The Joseph Smith, Jr. chair at the School of Egyptology

The Grant Palmer chair in the School of American & Church History.

The Murphy/Southerton chair in the School of Biological Sciences.

The Steve Benson chair in the School of Religious Studies

The Boyd K Packer chair in School of Industrial & Factory Engineering

The Ethan Smith chair in the School of Hebrew and Ancient Studies

The Greg W. Dodge chair in the School of Cognitive Dissonance


Boyd K Packer chair at the School of Tolerance, Diversity and Ecumenical Studies

Spencer W Kimball chair at School of Native American Genetic and DNA Research

Carl Sagan chair at the School of Kolobian Astronomy

Mark Hofmann chair at the School of General Authority Ethics in Public Relations - by cricket


The Mary Elizabeth Rollins-Lightner-Smith Chair at the BYU School of Marriage and Family Planning

The Ed Meacham Chair at the ASU School of Political Correctness

The Carol Lynn Pearson chair at the School of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Studies - by Cora Judd


The Captain Moroni chair of Military Studies (all ROTC courses will focus on digging ditches, nothing else)

The Joseph Smith/Brigham Young chair of Reproductive Studies

The Joseph Smith/Brigham Young chair of Gynecology (must be able to perform a pap smear with nothing other than their own appendages)

The Brother of Jared chair of Naval Architecture (The Nephi co-chair)

The Joseph Smith chair of Ancient History (no knowledge of the subject matter required)

The Joseph Smith chair of Ancient Languages (same requirements as previously mentioned chair) - by the land of oz


Thomas S. Monson Chair at the School of Cosmetology

Dallin Oaks Chair at the School of Pharisiacal Law - by Stray Mutt


The Moroni Chair at the School for Parapsychology

The Mormon Chair at the School of Alchemy and Bookbinding

The Nephi Chair at the School of Criminal Justice. The "head" of the department will be named in honor of Laban - by brian-the-christ


Kyle Whittingham- Advisor to the Chair of the Department of Procrastination and Lost Opportunity. (Currently on extended sabatical) - by Bob


Mister Ed - Chairman of the Department of Pre-Columbian Equine Studies - by Otremer

The Joseph Fielding Smith school of Anthropology

The Brigham H. Roberts school of Wine Studies

The Moroni school of Metallurgical Sciences

The Daniel Peterson School of Curelom Studies

The Ezra Taft Benson School of Right-wing Political Scientology

The Spencer W. Kimball School for The Conservation of Little Birdies

The Hugh Pinnock School of Criminal Detection - activejackmormon


Joseph Smith chair at the School of Religion and Ethics Dept - by Katsura


Sheri Drew chair at the School of the Holocaust and No Special Rights for Gays Studies - by Hellen


The Orrin Porter Rockwell Chair in the Criminal Justice Department - by Randy J.


The Joseph Smith Chair of Adolescent Sexuality

The Brigham Young Chair of Innovative Divine Justice Through Blood Atonement

The John D. Lee Chair of Highway Safety - by pioneer stock


The Gene Cook chair of Modern Music and Aviation Studies

The Joseph Smith chair of Geology of Seer Stones

The Joseph Smith chair of Money and Banking - by franz


The Shiz Respiratory Research Center

Boyd K. Packer School of Factory Management

The Laman and Lemuel Chair of Dermatology Evolution - by alex


The Gordon B. Hinkley Chair at the School of Historical Artifacts Acquisition

The Mark Hoffman chair at the School of Historical Documents Preservation - by austinapostate


The Gordon B. Hinkley Chair of Cranial Proctology - by SD


The John D. Lee School of Hostage Negotiation

The Marie Osmond School of Incontinence - Otremer


The Hugh Nibley Chair in Mormon Apologetics

The Daniel Peterson Chair in Logic - by D.P. Gumby


The Jeffrey Holland Chair for the Study of Anger and Emotional Disturbance - by robertb


The Corporation of the President of the COJCOLDS School for Non-prophet Business - by JC


The Mark E Peterson Chair of Clothed Copulation Studies - by a

Presidential Plagiarizing for the Lord

02/05/2004 - by Steve Benson

Introduction: Presidential Plagiarizing for the Lord

Recent attention at the bulletin board has focused on the plagiarized basis for Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson's famous sermon on pride, lifted in large measure--and without attribution--from the writings of Christian author, C.S. Lewis.

The plagiarism problem, however, has not been the sole authorship (so to speak) of the President of the Mormon Church.

It has also been a problem for the President of Brigham Young University.

On 25 April 1996, the then-incoming president of BYU (and General Authority), Merrill J. Bateman, delivered his inaugural address to the student body assembled in the Marriott Center, entitled "Response to Change."

Bateman was subsequently accused of stealing--without attribution--portions of his remarks from an article published earlier the same year, authored by conservative philosopher Gertrude Himmelfarb, entitled, "The Christian University: A Call to Counterrevolution." (First Things, no. 59, January 1996, pp. 16-19)

The plagiarism accusation caused an uproar in academic circles, leading Bateman to deny the charge. The accusation was recently mentioned in an article appearing in the Desert News, in conjunction with the end of Bateman's tenure as BYU president:

Bateman, who served as the LDS Church's presiding bishop until his appointment as university president, was accused of plagiarizing the ideas of neo-conservative scholar Gertrude Himmelfarb during his 1996 inaugural address. Bateman denied the plagiarism charge.,1249,465034158,00.html

Comparing Bateman's Inaugural Address with Himmelfarb's Article

Although the manuscript copy of Bateman's 1996 inaugural address offered a single footnote reference to Himmelfarb's ideas (located on p. 18 of her article), Bateman failed in the spoken version of those remarks to acknowledge his reliance on Himmelfarb's ideas--thus, leaving the false impression that her words were his own.

A point-by-point, topical comparison of the Himmelfarb and Bateman texts raises serious questions about Bateman's intellectual honesty:

On Disparaging Truth, Knowledge and Objectivity


"Today many eminent professors in some of our most esteemed universities disparage the ideas of truth, knowledge, and objectivity as naive or disingenuous at best, as fraudulent and despotic at worst."

"Above all, it is the truth that is denigrated."

"Finally, and most disastrously, the university, liberated from religious dogma, has also become liberated from the traditional academic dogma, the belief in truth, knowledge, and objectivity."


"During the past two decades, however, a number of well-known educators have begun to denigrate truth, knowledge, and objectivity."

On Politicization of the University By Interest Groups


"It [the university] is also a highly politicized institution; no longer subject to any religious authority, the university is at the mercy of the whims and wills of interest groups and ideologies."


"The university becomes a politicized institution that is at the mercy and whims of various interest groups."

On the Secularization of the University and Its Hostility to Religion


"For we are now confronted with a university . . . that has almost totally abandoned its original mission. It is now not merely a secular institution but a secularist one, propagating secularism as a creed, a creed that is not neutral as among religions but is hostile to all religions, indeed to religion itself."


"If university scholars reject the notion of ‘truth,’ there is no basis for intellectual and moral integrity. Secularism becomes a creed that is no longer neutral but hostile to religion."

On the Rise of Radical Relativism


"The animating spirit of postmodernism is a radical relativism and skepticism that rejects any idea of truth, knowledge, or objectivity."


"The driving theory is a radical relativism and skepticism that rejects any idea of truth or knowledge."

Before Giving Another Speech, Bateman Should Perhaps Review BYU's Honor Code

BYU's Honor Code says the following about academic honesty and plagiarism:

The first injunction of the BYU Honor Code is the call to "be honest." Students come to the university not only to improve their minds, gain knowledge, and develop skills that will assist them in their life's work, but also to build character. "President David O. McKay taught that character is the highest aim of education" (The Aims of a BYU Education, p. 6). It is the purpose of the BYU Academic Honesty Policy to assist in fulfilling that aim.

BYU students should seek to be totally honest in their dealings with others. They should complete their own work and be evaluated based upon that work. They should avoid academic dishonesty and misconduct in all its forms, including but not limited to plagiarism, fabrication or falsification, cheating, and other academic misconduct.

Conclusion: Fellow General Authority Boyd K. Packer Rides to Bateman's Rescue

A few months after exposure of BYU President Bateman as a plagiarizer, Boyd K. Packer issued what some saw as a thinly-veiled attack against Bateman's Mormon critics.

At October 1996 General Conference, in a sermon entitled, "The Twelve Apostles," Packer warned:

Some few within the Church, openly or perhaps far worse, in the darkness of anonymity, reproach their leaders in the wards and stakes and the Church, seeking to make them "an offender for a word," [Isaiah 29:21; see also 2 Nephi 27:32] as Isaiah said. To them the Lord said, "Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

"But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves . . .

"Because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

"Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

"They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation." [D&C 121: 16-17, 19 21]

That terrible penalty will not apply to those who try as best they can to live the gospel and sustain their leaders. Nor need it apply to those who in the past have been guilty of indifference or even opposition, if they will repent and confess their transgressions, and forsake them.[See D&C 58:43]

Take heart, however. If Packer comes to a Mormon leader's defense, you know that leader did something wrong.


Would Elder Clate W. Mask Jr. of the 2nd Quorum of the Seventy be considered a small fish on this site?

Well, anyway, it seems a son-in-law of his will be placed in a high academic position in the physics department at BYU without the properly advancing in rank. GA relatives at BYU seem to be above all that pesky "Rank Advancement Review" nonsense. - 12/20/2003 - anon

BYU scientist at center of ambitious project to assemble Earth's "Tree of Life"

12/14/2003 - from Non Sequitur

The latest news from BYU is very interesting for those that enjoy debating the merits of the theory of evolution.

It appears that "A Brigham Young University professor has been tapped to join a project the National Science Foundation likens to the missions that placed a man on the moon and that deciphered the human genome."

"The NSF's "Assembling the Tree of Life" project aims to discover the evolutionary history of all life on Earth. Jack Sites, BYU professor of integrative biology, is part of the team that recently earned a $2.4 million grant to tackle the branch that includes scaly reptiles like lizards and snakes". "

So here we have a BYU professor that is going to be working on a project that is tasked with learning about the "evolutionary history of all life on Earth".

Do you think that when he stands in front of all his peers some day to report his findings that he'll start his presentation by reading from Genesis or the Book of Moses? I would surely hope not - he'd be laughed off the project! But of course, we should not fear to bear our testimonies in the face of persecution, right?!?!?

There were a couple of interesting "biological stunts" listed that reptiles (Dr. Sites' "favorite subjects") can perform:

* Seventy species of lizards reproduce asexually (no males exist).

* The sex of some species is determined by nest temperature during incubation.

And this in a publication by BYU no less!!!

I guess the Proclamation on the Family really only applies to the human species, more likely just to Homo Sapiens.

Watch for a press release from LDS.ORG soon clarifying that position! Wouldn't want any misunderstanding of the Lord's handiwork now would we?!?!?

Oh, those letters to the editor

11/16/2003 - from anon

When I was at BYU (1998-20001), I remember there were a couple series of letters to the editor in the Daily Universe which were hilarious, even to a TBM (True Believing Mormon) such as I then was.

The first one started with some guy complaining about girls dressing immodestly on campus. How dare they walk around and tempt him like that! Then another guy (or maybe it was the same guy) wrote in complaining that some of the girls wear their book bags with the strap across their chests so that it goes between their breasts. He thought this was immodest. Some girl replied that he was a pervert. Does anybody have a copy of this? Surely someone must have kept it as a souvenir?

The other one that someone might have a copy of is the "controversy" over the statue of a family outside (I think) the Kimball Tower. Some students were offended by the idea that the supposed husband and wife in the statue were not wearing rings on their ring finger. Does anybody have a copy of this?

Helaman - Wymount - Housing from Hell

10/30/2003 - from sister rosemary teacup

December of 1974. I was living in Helaman Halls, finishing up my teaching credential and subbing for the Provo school district 2 or 3 times a weeks. I paid for both my housing and my tuition out of my own checking account. I had purchased and was paying for a new little car IN MY OWN NAME.

When I had signed the "contract" to live in the dorms, since I knew I was finishing in December, I made the appropriate changes re the dates of occupancy (I was not staying until April). I even attached a memo stating this to the contract and wrote the same a full time teaching job in Spanish Fork). HOUSING refused to let me out of the contract! I showed them the legal documents but they said I had tricked them; that they couldn't be expected to scutinize every contract yadayadayada.

It took about 6 weeks, but with a sincere threat of legal action, they let me out of the contract---but then they wanted to send my deposit monies to my MOTHER. Not that she wouldn't have given me the money! back, but here I am, an adult, paying my own way...their resoning? "...well, sister, I am sure your mother either gave you the money or enable you to earn that money. We'll send it to her and she can decide how to disburse it." Again, the threat of legal action reined them in.

Several years later, I'm moving out of Wymount Terrace with my deadbeat RM and Housing once again wants to rip me off. They will have to repaint our cinderblock apartment and plan on charging me $1 for every nail hole. #1--there were no nail holes put in by me and #2, I had photos taken of each existing nailhole the day we moved in with a copy of the Daily Universe in the photo. They claimed that somehow I had drilled the holes on that day and then fradulently taken the photos. Again, I threatened legal action, so they caved but not before telling me "....BYU IS the Church and I can't understand why you are putting yourself above the Church"

Baloney--BYU and the Church are businesses built on the backs of frightened sheep.

Going to pot

09/20/2003 - from anon

A German friend of mine living in the BYU German house was growing marijuana in the window of his bedroom. His dear, sweet and stupid room mates would ask him what the plant was. He'd say, "I don't know. It's just a plant." As a result, he never got caught.

Take you and your yogurt some other place

09/20/2003 - from ShakespeareWales

"If you don't like it here, go somewhere else" is always the standad TBM response to any kind of complaint or criticism of BYU. I remember one time when a girl wrote a polite letter to the university newspaper, stating that the bookstore only sold low-fat yoghurt, and requesting that, since she liked full-fat yoghurt, the bookstore stock full-fat as well as low-fat yoghurt.

The following day, the paper printed a response from another girl student, reminding the student body that there are thousands of people who would love to go to BYU, whatever kind of yoghurt the bookstore sells, so if anyone isn't happy with the bookstore's yoghurt, they should either put up with it, or go somewhere else!

Prize fighting adultery

09/20/2003 - from ShakespeareWales

Conversation overheard in a Doctrine & Covenants class, when the instructor talked about "Pugilists":

BOY (whispers to girl beside him): What's a pugilist?

GIRL (with the confidence of the faithful): It's someone who commits adultery.

BOY: Oh yeah. I think a knew that.

(A pugilist is a professional fighter, like a boxer or a wrestler)

Traffic Ticket Tax

09/13/2003 - from

BYU traffic office issues different kinds of parking permit -- "R" which allows you to park only in areas marked R, which are all some distance from the main campus, and "Y" which allows you to park in all R areas and areas marked Y, which are much closer to the campus.

My first year, I bought an R permit, but got so fed up with having to walk almost a mile between my car and the campus, that the second year, I bought a Y permit. To be fair, I did receive specific instructions that I was to remove the old R sticker from my car's window before placing my new Y sticker in the window, but since it made no difference to where I was allowed to park, I couldn't see the point and didn't bother. Besides, I kind of liked the idea of having a little collection of parking stickers recording how long I'd been at the University.

However, I got a ticket, for all of five bucks. I figured this was so dumb, if I just spoke politely with the traffic office, they would see reason and drop the absurd fine.

Nothing doing. In a long conversation that progressed to a heated argument, they admitted they couldn't see any reason or logic behind the rule, but insisted that since the rule existed, I was going to have to pay the fine.

So I went to the student ombudsman, who agreed this was stupid, and requested the traffic office drop the fine. The traffic office displayed what a pointless farce the ombudsman is by *ignoring* him, and insisting that I pay the fine.

So, finally, I agreed to pay them their five bucks, reminding them that when I graduated, the BYU Alumni office was going to request a big, fat donation from me, and then keep requesting further big, fat donations from then on. I gave the traffic office my solemn word that if they insisted pay their stupid $5 fine, I would do so, and then never, ever contribute a single cent to BYU again. It was up to them. What did they think would be in BYU's best interests?

The traffic office insisted I pay the fine.

So I wrote them out a cheque for $5.00

Sure enough, when I graduated, the Alumni office requested a big, fat donation -- suggesting $100 for every year I'd been at the Y. I wrote them back, enclosing the traffic office's original ticket, and told them they could have $5. If the traffic office would let them have it.

Wilkinson pulls chair out

09/13/2003 - from Barbarella, Queen of the Lambda Quadrant

BYU's Vice President in the 1960s, Earl C. Crockett, reveals in his journal a really ugly incident with Ernest L. Wilkinson in the early 1960s. Crockett and wife, Wilkinson and wife, and Harold B. Lee (then still an Apostle) and wife, had all gone to Hawaii on church and BYU business. Arriving at a very prestigious dinner that they were all attending, Wilkinson pulled out a chair for his wife Alice and when she went to sit down, he pulled it all the way out from under her and she dropped to the floor. Wilkinson laughed himself silly at his own cleverness and his wife's humiliation.

Harold B. Lee was HORRIFIED at what Wilkinson had done and held it against him ever after. At Lee's insistence, Wilkinson hit a glass ceiling in the church and never rose higher than he was at that fateful moment. What a creep.

Oh, and Crockett also confirms in his journal that Wilkinson "took delight" in bringing Freshman women to their knees with bone-crushing handshakes at Fall registration. Ah the neuroses of little men...

Bishop Sparky on Sex

09/13/2003 - from anon

Back in the early 80's when I lived at the King Henry apts. out bishop "Bishop Sparks" we called him Sparky. Anyway he was really hung up on the sex thing. He gave one of his long anticipated sex talks in Priesthood one Sunday that was hilarious. He had two points of advise that would save our souls.

#1 - don't let our girlfriends touch our's turns him on when his wife does it.

#2 - don't kiss a girl or hold her for more then 15 seconds...reason...women are like "bacon grease" once you heat them up you can't cool them down!!

Greatest BYU story ever told?

09/12/2003 - from ShakespeareWales

I can't believe no-one yet has brought up the greatest BYU story ever told. This made headlines in the Salt Lake tribune. A few days later, I was (secretly) attending a meeting of the U of U's Lutheran Society, and they were all asking me incredulously if this was REALLY true. These people knew a few things about BYU, but this was SO ridiculous, they couldn't believe it. So here it is:

Four friends are out and about in Provo. They go to a bar and have a Bud each, after which they go to the Wilkinson building and play some video games for a while. A virtuous young lady passing them thinks she smells alcohol.

So she calls 911.

The BYU police not being available, the Provo PD attends. By this time, however, the four boys in question have already left the Wilkinson in the direction of the main campus. So the Provo PD, presumably not having any criminals to catch, assign FOUR officers to search the campus and track them down.

Having caught them, the cops detain them for the heinous crime of exercizing their rights under the Constitution, and escort them to the Student Life office.

Student Life discovers that three of them are not students, so releases them (how kind!) with "a warning." Against what, nobody will ever know . . .

However, the fourth one IS a student. He escapes expulsion on agreeing to submit to two conditions:

1) a $1000 fine

2) he undergo counseling for his "alcohol-addiction problem"

And all for a bottle of Bud!

This was around the spring of 1995. Check around if you don't believe me!

Kissing Breasts = Oral Sex?

09/11/2003 - from Jello Jihader

As newly married BYU students in the mid-80s, our ward had a member of the Stake Presidency (PoliSci prof Stan Larson) give a 'special presentation' on Church positions -- er, doctrines -- on sex, in a joint session of Priesthood/Relief Society. This session had been hyped for a few weeks previously, and we had been instructed beforehand -- doh! I mean, in prior weeks -- to think of questions to bring, to ask him for a Q&A session.

People wrote their questions anonymously on note cards, and then he drew them out and read them. Naturally, one of the first was an inquiry on the acceptability of oral sex.

His disingenuous response was: "Well umm, oral sex is a, ummm, rather general and vague term; ummm, I don't know what *YOU* mean when *YOU* say 'oral sex', but umm, well, if you want to, for example, kiss your wife's breasts, then that's between the two of you." And then quickly went on to the next question. Lots of uncomforable looks around the room at each other, wondering if this was some kind of joke....

This guy had a joint PhD/JD from Harvard & Tufts, but thought kissing breasts was 'oral sex'? Wow, that's gotta be one crazyass adventurous bedroom at the Larson house!!

Thigh Massage by Stake Presidency

09/06/2003 - anon

When I was a freshman at BYU in 1987, I was preparing to go on a mission. As part of that process, you have Bishop and Stake President interviews.

Well, I'm in with a member of my Stake Presidency, and we're sitting on chairs with rollers. He rolls on over to me and puts his legs on either side of one of my legs and puts his hands on my thighs. I'm thinking "What the hell is going on here?"

He asks me where I grew up, I told him on a farm in Washington. He then makes the obvious mental jump and asks me if I'd ever had sex with animals! Huh? He explained that it is very common among farm boys. Ok....

He then went on to explain how in all his years of interviewing young men, he'd only met one who would ejaculate when taking a piss. He explained that he had to ask this young man what the 'stuff' looked like when it came out to 'verify' that it was indeed what he suspected.

He went on and on about masturbation and and deviant sex. Keep in mind that I'm just there for a mission interview, I'm not there confessing anything. The entire time, he just kind of massaged my thigh between his legs. I was 18 and just wanted to go on mission for the love of God! This guy was beyond belief. If I'd have had more huevos back then, I'd have told him to shut the f--k up and get his hands off me. REALLY disturbing this guy

Bra-less at BYU

09/05/2003 - from A Romney descendant

I'm a BYU graduate, life long Mormon (but completely inactive since 22, descendant of blue blood Mormons, polygamists, apostles, etc). I went to BYU for both undergrad and law school (after a 2 year hiatus from Happy Valley). On my first day of law school as a first year student, I went "across the street" to pick up my activity card. The person behind the desk wouldn't give it to me and said two gentlemen would like to talk to me.

I was escorted down the hall by two geeky looking guys in short white sleeved shirts and ties. We sat down in an office and they closed the door. The conversation went like this:

First geek: "I'm Brother Johnson and I'm the Compliance Officer (or whatever the hell his title was) of Standards. This (motioning to his compatriot) is Brother Wilson and he is a Compliance Officer In-Training and just learning the ropes. Ahem. Ahem. It has just come to our attention that you are not wearing a bra."

(Both Compliance Officers stare at my chest.)

Me (looking down to see what they are looking at): "Oh, do you think I need one?" (I am only a 34A and that is pushing it.)

Bro. Johnson: "Ahem. Uh. (Cough, cough) Well, uh, the Dress Code that you signed when you applied to BYU said you would wear a bra."

Me: "I am really surprised that you were able to notice that I'm not wearing a bra. You must have been looking pretty hard to find this infraction. But, like you said, I signed up to the Dress Code. I really appreciate you bringing this matter to my attention so that I can be sure to uphold the Standards of this fine institution. Thank you so much for your diligence in searching for this infraction, so I could see the errors of my way. Now, can I have my activity card, please?"

Bro. Johnson: "You may when you go back to your apartment and uh ahem put on a bra. Then you can come back over and pick up your card."

Me: "Oh thank you so much. And when I do that should I ask for you so that you may do another inspection?"

Bro. Johnson: (Cough cough) "Ahem. Uh, no, that will not be necessary. Thank you that will be all."

Why aren't you wearing your garments

07/24/2003 - anon

Here's a story. I'm now a criminal defense attorney, and I went to BYU Law School. While at BYU, I was approached by a young woman in my ward. She told me that one of her roommates had left an anonymous note on the door of the landlady of her building.

The note said that he had had a boy all night in her room. It wasn't signed, and thus, it could have been dropped there by all types of people. Anyway, she was now facing this crazy, fancy court type proceeding, and she wanted me to get involved. I said okay, but I had no idea what I was in for.

At the time I was a new convert of about a year. And I saw the best in people. Deep in my heart, I wanted just to see that she got a good, fair process inasmuch as that is possible at this truly odd University. So I set up a meeting with a bigwig in the Honor Department. You know, the quintessential, overweight, GA self righteous type. I simply wanted to figure out how the process worked before trying to help at least to make it fair.

So, he and I are sitting in his office, deep in the Honor Code Department. Now, I was going to be endowed in about 2 months. But at that time I was wearing a pair of long khaki shorts which you'd wear golfing, etc. I had my legs crossed, and so the guys asks me, in the middle of our meeting, completely out of the blue, the following:

"Are you an active member?" Yes, I replied.

"Then why aren't you wearing your garments?" he asked.

Now, this may not seem like a big deal, but it just typifies the ridiculousness, smallishness of the church at times. Utah has nothing to do with anything, and God is utterly laughing about that type of conduct. What a small person he was.

Thanks for letting me chime in.

Parking ticket paid with tithing money

07/19/2003 - rotationslim

I went to BYU, and am pragmatic enough to realize much of their policies were stupid, but my favorite act of disobedience was when I got a parking ticket that was non-deserved, and they didn't have any interest in hearing my side of the story, So I went ahead and paid it, but took it out of my tithing. Never told the Bishop, just reported myself as a full payer(which I was, minus the $12), and left the mitigated parking fine between the Lord and myself.

One other incident of note, I was 22 years old, married, not lived at home for 4 years, my wife and I supporting a child, paying every penny of my tuition with part time work and loans and they were mailing a copy of my grades to my parents. I stopped by the records department and told them how insane that was (my grades were very good, FYI, I had no problem with my parents seeing them, but it was the paternalistic attitude that bothered me.) Records office said it was policy. I realized they wouldn't listen to reason, so I changed tactics and said "well the reason I do not want them mailed out is because both of my parents died in a car crash last year, and my aunt lives in the house where you mail the grades, and it upsets her to get the letters addressed to her dead sister" They had no choice but to stop.

In my experience, keeping a sense of humor, and an agile mind will negotiate one through the BYU silliness. In the end it was my choice to stay there, and it was a good one.

Two semesters, that's all I could handle at BYU!

03/10/2003 - cryan71

Two semesters, that's all I could handle at BYU! I went in 1989 and about everything stunk. I had come out for a visit about a year earlier and a friend had set up the perfect BYU campus visit which included a date, tour, just about everything great. One of the main reasons for my move to Utah was I was starting to deal with being gay and I figure that Provo would stop that right quick.

I had just got out of the Navy and moved into these great new BYU approved apartments. I was the first one to move in. When my first apartment mate moved in, he barely spoke two words to me and had has dad install a lock on his bedroom door. Come to find out that all these mormon boys were all friends from Arkansas. While the other two were nice, that first one had major social skill issues. BYU is a ton of rich people from California.

The only thing I about BYU I remember liking were the Tator Tots at the CougarEat, intramural flag football, learning Tennis from Andrew and reading the off-campus banned newspapers.

Lots of weirdness happend when I was there. In the school newspaper there was big report about someone flashing girls in the library. Seems this kid would wear a sweatshirt or a sweater and have his penis hanging out underneath. When he saw a girl, he would lift up his shirt, exposing himself.

I moved from that apartment to a condo south of campus. This time I shared a room with a kid from Washington. We didn't get along. I had stopped going to the ward (with the "hanging bishop" who wouldn't sign your form unless you attended church 80% of the time) and had the form that we had to get signed to keep enrolling signed by a local baptist preacher. And of course, I caught my roommate in bed with his girlfriend.

Well things with my roommate deteriorated and I found out what Standards was really used for - telling on people you don't like in hopes they get kicked out of BYU. Its sort of a big brother thing. My roommate had turned me in for watching Showtime after dark movies and cursing. I of course did the only thing I could do, turn him in for fornication.

When I went to the office, the counselor said that those were small compared to this and he pulls out my form. I told him that I didn't consider myself a mormon anymore and was returning to being a baptist. Wrong answer. He said unless I got my bishop to sign a new form, that the Standards hold on my registration would not be lifted.

Pissed off, I decided to leave after that semester and I moved to SLC to attend U or U. I wasn't about to be blackmailed or coerced into attending church or confessing my sins to anyone.

On a sidenote, at the U or U, the kid who was exposing himself at the library. He was a RM. He was on my dorm room floor over Christmas break and he showed me the offending member. He certainly had something to show.

Un-Salutatorian creepy experience at my BYU graduation

02/18/2003 - In The Out Crowd

I had a creepy experience at my BYU graduation. I was one of two salutatorians. As such, I was invited to breakfast and lunch with the university prez and general authority du jour. I was informed the morning of graduation that I had been demoted from "salutatorian" status to "just second or third". Ok.... Thanks for telling me AFTER I had already put "salutatorian" on some grad school apps (got rejected later from one grad school for "falsifying" that information inadvertantly).

Worse yet, the valedictorian was - surprise! - the university president's son. Me and the other non-salutatorian salutatorian were therefore relegated to peon status.

Carlos Asay spoke. To sum up, it was boring, stilted, and uninspired. Frankly I expected better.

At the luncheon afterward, the other peon and me were completely ignored. The visiting LDS royalty and other families of university employees were introduced. I expected, after being blocked from speaking at the commencement ceremonies, that myself and the other peon would be acknowledged in some way. We were not. The other peon slinked out the back afterward. My husband insisted that we would leave through the front door, the way that we came in, and that we would say a formal goodbye to our unbelievably rude hosts. At least we behaved with dignity.

At the time my mom was newly baptized in the church. She had planned to fly to the college to watch my commencement but never made it. I am glad she didn't bother. This experience was the first clue I had that something was rotten in the state of Denmark - er - Utah. You could not have found a more rude, self-centered, arrogant bunch of people anywhere. I've met bona fide celebrities, former US presidents and Fortune 500 business execs who were far more thoughtful, charming, inspiring, and well-spoken.

I fully expected that people who claimed to represent Jesus Christ should be genuinely Christ-like. I expected kindness, sincerity, warmth, humility... These GA's claim to be witnesses of a Christ that they clearly do not resemble, know or understand. That was a scary but necessary "revelation" of sorts for me. It was painful, but thankfully it happened so that I could see my way out.

Carlos Asay's grandchild replies

07/24/2003 - from kateasay

In memory of my grandfather. Upon reading the remarks of whomever wrote "In the crowd", I was very suprised to find my grandfather's name written in the same sentance as "boring, stilted and uninspired". They even went so far as to say "These GA's claim to be witnesses of a Christ that they clearly do not resemble, know or understand." I am absolutley appalled, offended and hurt! I love my grandpa and in his behalf I would like to say that I am sorry for any offended feelings.

My grandfather absolutely resembled, knew and understood our Savior, he was constantly sacrifing his life for others. He served numberous missions, spent most of his life studying and reading not just the scriptures but other books written by our prophets, and was continuously giving love to his family, friends and those he didn't even know. He continues to inspire me even without him here.

MTV's Julie - BYU Coed on Real People
Read about conflict of conformity vs individuality.

We Will Go Down

01/03/20032 - Ex Evil BYU girl

15 years ago when I saw my now hubby at the pool at the apt complex we lived in i knew i had to do something dramatic. He was one of the "ward" honcho guys but at the same time he was going through the babes. Well after a few dates it was apparent that he wasn't going to back down from some good oral fun , he was good at giving and talking (still is). And we convinced ourselves we didn't commit a big enough crime to tell the bish about so we got married in the temple. To this day sex is still great!

Beard Cards at BYU

12/19/2002 - Blabber

I got turned out of the testing center for a days growth. I got back in line, and the subjective judgment of another testing center worker deemed me OK to enter. or maybe it was the secret handshake that got me in.

I should have had a beard card. I can't shave closely or my whole neck and face break out in painful rashes. That's usually sufficient grounds for being granted a "beard card" - an official allowance for having the appearance of evil.

The doctor writes you a little note that says either (a) you get a rash when shaving, or (b) you're really ugly without a beard.

I probably could have had both excuses. - Blabber

There are funnier things for example, despite the fact that virtually every photograph of Brigham Young (with the exception of the very earliest) has him sporting a beard to his belly, the life-size bronze of him in front of the administration building has him clean shaven. Talk about historical revisionism! That used to really piss me off. - Shane


It always bothered me when I went to religion classes and a young co-ed would give the opening prayer giving thanks for the opportunity to be at the Lord's or thy university. Also, grading in religion classes should be pass/fail. In my first semester after the mission, I got a 3.9 GPA with my only A minus in a religion clas so I didn't make the dean's list. It also ticked me off that no one in my major made the dean's list that semester since I was a poli sci major bunched in the same college as the family science majors. Anyway, I went to the religion prof and told him my grievance. He wouldn't change my grade from the A-minus to an A since he had a policy of giving out only one A per semester. I missed one question on the final. Needless to say, I got out of there in 2.5 years and married a girl I met in law school at a different university. Enter to learn, go forth to earn!

Although I do miss the taco salads at the old cougar eat. - 11/07/2002 - anon

One semester, our ward met in the Karl G. Maeser building on campus. In the room where we had sacrament, there was a huge portrait of Brother Maeser hanging behind the pulpit. It kind of puts a new spin on 3 Nephi 27. I had a little trouble having sacrament on the same table where they used bunson burners too. But if you got bored, you could also look up at the periodic table to the elements. The editing of the movies at the old Varsity theater was fun too. Sometimes, they would miss some of the content. In the Naked Gun with Leslie Nielsen, they forgot to take out the line "nice beaver" when he is looking up at Priscilla Presley on the ladder and she hands him a stuffed beaver. - 11/07/2002 - anon

The conversation I had with George Pace

11/03/2002 - Beaglie

In the spring of 1978 as a non-Mormon student at BYU engaged to a returned missionary after having spent almost two years in Utah attending the "Y", I found myself having a lot of questions about Mormonism. I remember walking around in a state of shock at some of the things I had found out about the Mormon church. One of the big issues for me was the fact that Joseph Smith had been a mason. My Book of Mormon teacher was George(?) Durant and I remember all the talk about "secret combinations" and how evil they were. Then I did some reading on my own and found out that ole Joe was a Mason. Well, I had a big problem with that.

My fiance's True Believing Mormon (TBM) family couldn't answer any of the questions I had; they sort of treated me like I had some kind of contagious disease and they kept trying to find a doctor to refer me to. (The higher up in the Mormon Church the better.) My one TBM future Sister in lawIL had an uncle who was some big wig whatever at BYU but we didn't want to involve the family in our situation (hubby, then fiancee at the time was having his doubts about "the" church as well) so we looked for someone else to talk to. I went to my Gospel Doctrine instructor since he always seemed to have all the answers. He made an appointment with me and it had to be one of the strangest conversations I've ever had with anyone in my life.

I really wanted him to give me answers; I wanted to believe there were justifiable explanations for all of the shocking things I had learned about Mormonism. I remember blurting out all of the things I had learned with Joe's Masonic endeavors right at the top of the list. I was next to tears and when I stopped the questions and sat back and waited for him to straighten it all out for me, I came to the sickening realization that there wouldn't be any quelling of my fears-there would'nt be any consoling explanations to ease my doubts because well, they were all totally justified. The only choice I had was to violate my own conscience and "pretend' that all was well in Zion. When Mr. Pace saw that I couldn't do that, (I never said that I couldn't or wouldn't do that, but he could see that was not an option for me),his only advice was to break off the engagement--my fiancee could never be happy with me. (Huh!! What did he know after 24 years we're still happily married)

So after all the times Mormons around me had refered to their beliefs and church as being "The Truth", I found out that it was all a crock of lies and there were no answers. One would think that if a man like George Pace really believed what he was preaching, he would have at least made an attempt to have convinced me. But all he could do was advise me to move on and try to minimize the collateral damage to any TBMs I had had contact with.

I Admit It - I Finked On My Roommate

06/13/2001 - Jerry

I admit it, and I'm ashamed of it - but I turned a roommate in for having purchased a rifle and storing it in his closet - a real BYU no-no. We were rooming together in what was then called Stover Hall, circa 1970.

Back then (but certainly not today, thank goodness) I was a devout ultra-conservative, loyal to all things Republican. Over a short period of time and for reasons I couldn't fathom, my roommate renounced the right and embraced liberalism, which sent me in to apoplectic fits. Our political arguments escalated in duration and intensity, until it was everything we could do to keep from killing each other.

At one point, Allen (name changed) bought a rifle and stuffed it in his closet, supposedly to fend off hordes of John Birchers he was sure would come crashing through our window. This gave me the perfect opportunity to rat him out, which I did. I answered the official's obtrusive questions, praying Allen would get kicked out on his butt because of it; but it never happened, much to my disgust.

My political beliefs have shifted since then, and I look back at my squealing with profound regret. So, Allen - if you're reading this - please forgive me. You were right all along.

Two-breasted Woman Not Allowed Into BYU Dance

05/31/2001 - by Grant of recovery bulletin board

This happened to my sister around 1974 when she first started at BYU. She told me this story first hand just a couple days ago so I have no doubt its true.

She was a freshman at BYU and decided to get dressed up for a dance, so she wore a nice dress that complemented her figure.

Back then they had guys whose job it was to screen the people coming to the dance to ensure they met the dress code. My sister is very attractive and fairly well endowed. When the guy got to her he asked her to step out of the line so he could talk to her. He then proceeded to tell her, within earshot of everyone else, that her dress was too tight and clearly showed that she had two breasts instead of one (Those were his words, but I guess he meant that the dress was too tight), and would therefore not be allowed into the dance! My sister was mortified and could think of nothing else to do but go to the restroom, find an empty stall and cry. She then went back to her dorm and skipped the dance.

Later, she called up my dad and told him what happened. He then wrote a letter to the University president who then located the moron who had insulted my sister and told him to find her and appologize, which he did.

When my sister told me this I was laughing so hard I had tears in my eyes. But then I started wondering how many fanatics in the Church think "more" is always better when it comes to the church and so they take a given doctrine, rule, commandment, whatever, and take it to the nth degree.

Examples: "Keep the sabbath day holy". The fanatic won't allow their children to play, watch tv, change out of church clothes, read anything but scriptures on Sunday.

"Keep the Word of Wisdom". No chocolate. No caffeine.

"Stay morallly clean". Anything that turns you on is bad. Nothing but the missionary position allowed.

"Attend the temple regularly". Go every week.

So in defense of the goofball that embarrassed my sister, maybe he's just carrying on a time-honored tradition within the church, that of being a fanatic.

Comment Section

That time at BYU when I masterbated while fantasizing about an attractive girl I hometaught, then she called me 10 min later asking for a priesthood blessing, and I healed her!

One of the girls I hometaught at BYU was especially attractive. She was in my ward at The Colony. One morning I found myself fantasizing about her while masterbating in the shower. A few minutes later she called me begging for a priesthood blessing because she had the flu and had to go take a test.

I tried to delay or suggest somebody else, but none of the guys in the ward were around besides me. I hated giving blessings. I never once felt inspired to say anything, I always just copied fragments of other blessings and it made me feel so fake.

She begged and was crying. I dragged myself down the street to her apartment and did both the anointing and blessing. I had no reason to believe ANY priesthood blessing had the power to heal anybody, especially MY blessing since I had just comitted adultery in my heart and violated my little factory while fantasizing about her not 10 minutes ago.

She really was sick. I gave her a typical blessing and left as quickly as possible. She called that evening sobbing. It worked! Within an hour or two of my blessing she was completely healed! She thanked me through her tears for being a worthy priesthood holder etc.

I was so ashamed. But... that didn't stop me from continuing to fantasize about her when I masterbated. - 04/04/2016 - throwaway_byu_exmo


I'll never forget the first time I went to a BYU FHE. I was a convert and never attended primary but had a strong testimony (which I still do). Then the group starts singing Jesus wants me for a sunbeam (with all of its emphasis on "beam"). I think to myself, the missionaries didn't tell me about this. What church is this? That song still cracks me up. Also, I had a roommate who broke the 7th (fornication) but wasn't kicked out for honor code because him mom pulled some strings. I think that's how the honor code works. You can get kicked out for masturbation but not for fornication. Interesting. - 08/10/2002 - anon


10/01/2000 - Elsewhere
When I was a freshman at BYU, Jeff Holland, President at the time, made the statement that it was a privilege not a right to attend BYU. He said that if the freshman did not like it they could "go elsewhere". Soon after the speech students and teachers would repeat the "go elsewhere" if people were not happy about some of BYU's policies. About 8 years ago, I went elsewhere from the Church and have never been happier.


09/24/2000 - Tim
One of the most telling areas of Mormon art is church architecture. I was told in a whisper by the dean of the BYU College of Fine Arts -- in a moment of great frustration for him -- that the Provo temple and others like it seemed to be examples of `the bowling trophy school of architecture.`


08/22/2000 - James
"Under Wilkinson the faculty meetings where there previously had been a great exchange of ideas went right down the drain and in the same building I saw it happen. ("it" referring to Wilkinson, known for his "notoriuos ... open-mouth kissing with ... women ... It was kind of- it was a repulsive expression of a deviant drive that I identify as neurotic." My insert) It was most interesting because one of the first things that Wilkinson did when he came into power was chnage the old tradition of the Tuesday and Thursday assembly. He changed the devotional hour from a matter of choice to a matter of requirement ... But the joke went around the faculty that Wilkinson had written a new book called Free Agency and How to Enforce it ... he made it a matter of requirement and then he would send around, during the devotional, different people to go up and down the halls to check to see that the faculty members were not in their offices. The few delinquents who did not go would turn the lights off and sit quietly when the footsteps came down the hall, because they were not quite sure whether they were representatives or not. They were jokingly referred to in my hearing as members of the JBI, Jehovah's Bureau of Investigation.

The editor of the newspaper picked up on this and took a poll of faculty members as to whether or not they thought it was legitimate to require attendence. My position on this was completely clear. I thought it was not legitimate, meaning "reasonable." I thought that the way to get people there was to have good programms, and then they would want to come. I answered, "No," together with sixty-one other people on the faculty who responded, "No."

So here we were in the faculty meeting the next time in the Maeser Memorial Assembly Hall and the meeting was called to order by one of the men the president had brought from the East to do his bidding. This was William F. Edwards. The president was not there yet. In the silence that followed Edwards's calling the meeting to order and having the prayer, through the swinging doors came this little man. It was almost a parody of a western movie, a man coming through the swinging doors with his guns blazing. He did not have his guns blazing, but his lips were white with anger. He was absolutely furious. I remember distinctly how he started out. He said, "I have been told that sixty-two members of this faculty said that it is illegitimate for me, it is not legitimate for me, to require attendance at devotional. Now I challenge any man in his right mind to tell me why he would vote "No" on that. UP STOOD, OF ALL PEOPLE, HUGH NIBLEY. HE STARTED TO GIVE HIS EXPLANATION, AND PRESIDENT WILKINSON YELLED HIM DOWN. HE FINALLY SAID, "SIT DOWN, HUGH, YOUR'E CLEAR OFF SUBJECT" (my emphasis). Those were his exact words. So then stood up Joyce Stone, and he spoke for a few minutes. Then Brig Madsen. And then Briant Jacobs. It did not pacify the president one little bit. He was furiuos at all of us."

Poor Mr. Nibley. And that infront of all of the YBYourself Nibley faculty. Must have been traumatizing.

Whereas, even more revealing to me, which has nothing to do with Nibley mind you, are the sentences before the above, interestingly showing that Wilkinson could push around the male faculty but ran into trouble with the females:

"Also, Wilkinson was sexist. And one of his characteristics, it was widely known among the faculty, was he tendency to squeeze your hand in reception lines to the point that your knees would buckle. He did it to me once. I had shrapnel in my right hand and it nearly killed me. I wanted to go through the ceiling. From then on I never offered him my right hand. The one person who confronted him on this was Apostle Widtsoe's daughter, Eudora. She had gone through this before. What he especially liked was to see women begin to drop in front off him ... But Eudora told him that if he ever did it to her again she would kick him right in the shins, and I'm sure she meant it. He was notorious for open-mouth kissing ..." (p. 63f.)
"My Continuing Quest. Sociological Perspectives on Mormonism", by Ray R. Canning, SLC, 1996, 64f., Canning reporting on some aspects of the Wilkinson (former BYU president) era).


08/06/2000 - Linda - Regarding The Real World's BYU Julie
I watched the show, too, and I am sure that any thinking, breathing, normal person of whatever race or religion is to be appalled at the condescending, racist attitude Julie was obviously raised with as a Mormon. She actually said, "At home if someone asked me [to bring them a spoon and a bowl] we'd say, 'Excuse me!?! What COLOR do you think ~I~ am???'" That's pretty strong stuff! And it definitely puts Mormon attitudes and beliefs in a very bad light, IMHO.

All this other stuff in the BYU's Herald's letters to the editor about how Julie upheld her sexual values in front of a wicked world and how she is a missionary or a fine example seems insignifcant to me compared to what this blockbuster episode reveals about the racial attitudes she was taught as a "good Mormon girl."

Yes, to be fair, she was extrememly open and was willing to change her viewpoint when enlightened. She wept furiously at the embarassment of discovering her naivete and backwardness. She lobbied vigorously for Melissa to challenge her own cynicism about what one person can do to change racist viewpoints. Julie is an admirable young woman.

But...the strong, clear picture for me and I hope for many thousands of others who watched tonight's TRW is of the racist, bigoted, back- in-the-19th-Century, Mormon church's attitudes that still filter thoroughly and completely down to its present-day, influential, soon- to-be-raising-children-of-their-own, youngest members.

Hoping The Real World makes a few people think twice before investigating Mormonism in the future.


08/06/2000 - Carol
My across the street neighbor (in the early 90s) used to work for BYU housing cleaning the apartments/rooms when he was getting his Masters. He told me that they would find used condoms (yuk) all of the time behind the dressers and other furniture plus women's undies. He guessed they were afraid to flush the condoms for fear of clogging the toilet. He said he NEVER told just figured the guys/gals got lucky.

BYU Requires Letter of Explanation from Julie - 07/05/2000 - USA Today - "Real World Pressures Face Julie"
By Kevin V. Johnson: USA Today

DELAFIELD, WISCONSIN -- BYU Student Julie Stoffer, who appears in the current season of MTV's "The Real World," is writing a letter to BYU at its request, detailing "when were boys in my bedroom, till what time, what went on." The letter will help BYU determine whether Julie can return to BYU in the Fall.

The school has been concerned with Julie's actions and the environment on the show, which has a reputation for loose morals, "Our concern is what happened in that environment," says school spokeswoman Carri Jenkins. "What were the male-female interactions, and what was the appropriateness of those interactions?" But Stoffer maintans that her actions were above board.

She also says that when she decided to appear on the show, she knew that her actions wouldn't satisfy everyone, "I've lived pretty much my whole life trying to be a good example," she told USA Today, "and when I went on MTV, it was kind of a big step for me. I knew that no matter how hard I tried to be a good example, somebody was going to disagree with me. . . . So I said, 'OK, Julie, this time you're just going to be true to you. You're going to do what you feel is right, and if these convictions are ingrained, your actions will be in line with that.'"

Her appearance on the show has drawn negative reactions from fellow BYU students as well, including hate e-mail from some. And according to USA Today, "a local youth group rescinded its approval of her as a counselor."


07/02/2000 - Catherine de Gaston
I have lots of BYU stories too. I also have stories about outrageous behavior from many other areas and cultures. People aren't perfect, and Mormons at BYU are usually young and just trying to figure life out themselves. Can we try to have a little charity for them? Catherine, a true believing Mormon who believes in looking for the good in people

BYU's Irrational Sex Obsession by Jeff J - 05/10/2000
During my recent reading of Bertrand Russell, I came upon this statement:

"Most and women, given suitable conditions, will feel passionate love at some period of their lives. For the inexperienced, however, it is very difficult to distinguish passionate love from mere sex hunger; especially is this the case with well-brought-up girls, who have been taught that they could not possibly like to kiss a man unless they loved him. If a girl is expected to be a virgin when she marries, it will very often happen that she is trapped by transient and trivial sex attraction, which a woman with sexual experience could easily distinguish from love. This has undoubtedly been a frequent cause of unhappy marriages. Even where mutual love exists, it may be poisoned by the belief of one or both that it is sinful."

Due to the fact that this is a logic-based statement, one can only expect the exact opposite theories on sex to be taught from the classroom pulpits of BYU. It is unfortunate that it wasn't until my final year at BYU in 1994 did I realize that I was perhaps being controlled by an authoritarian society. I am now embarrassed to admit that as a missionary, I asked people, during baptismal interviews, if they were masturbating or fornicating (asking these questions in Chinese somehow made it seem less intrusive--I was in denial); and while at BYU, I found myself in the Bishop's office with my crying girlfriend feeling needless guilt and sharing very private information with a stranger who called himself "Bishop" (granted, this Bishop was probably just as controlled as I--so I hold no ill feelings towards him--even though he gave me some of the worst sex advice possible).

While at BYU I found that Mormonism's irrational obsession with sex nearly crippled the unwed students of the institution--that is until both the students and administration seemed to quietly agree on an action which I once heard a Bishop in Sacrament meeting call: "simulated sex with the clothes on." People of my generation have found another term: "dry-humping."

The dry-humping phenomenon within the BYU society is an interesting one. It's one of those activities upon which both the student body and the theocratic priesthood--which governs the Standards office--have established an implicit agreement. Technically, the Lord frowns on those students of His university who achieve orgasm whilst rubbing the crotches of their khakis against one another, but for both the students and the theocracy, there is really no other alternative: If the student is asked to honestly give up this type of release altogether in the name of upholding the honor code, his libido, if he had any honor, would probably force him to withdraw from BYU; if the theocracy were to enforce punitive measures against every single infraction beyond kissing, they would be forced expel the majority of the student body. Thus, both sides have found a common ground, and through the power of repentance, there has been established a tacit understanding: Indeed, dry-humping has provided for years now, and will continue to provide throughout Christ's millennial reign of glory, the glue that binds BYU's student body with its arid theocracy. The shrewd Mormons of Provo could probably sell this epoxy at a Provo hardware store and market as: "Temple Sealing."


BYU Looks at Tightening Reports of Honor Code violations, But Finds Rumors Hard to Squelch Salt Lake Tribune 25Jul99

In the wake of recent controversy, Brigham Young University, an LDS Church-owned school, will reconsider the way school officials confirm to members of the media Honor Code investigations. BYU would like to avoid helping to make public what it believes to be private. The Honor Code, prohibits drinking alcohol, pre-marital sex and other violations.

Last year the school dispelled a rumor that athlete Brian Gray was under investigation by simply saying he was not. Junior Mahe, a l9-year-old running back, was "under review" and later withdrew from school amid the controversy. When others saw Carri Jenkins' name in the news as the church's spokeswoman who confirmed the investigation to reporters, Jenkins found herself the target of criticism.

She received dozen of phone calls and e-mails criticizing her part in releasing a student's name and subjecting him to negative attention, prior to action being taken. "If it means having a kid on the front page when a decision hasn't been made, and (not saying anything) could prevent that story, then by all means we want to look closely at this," she said. But "if the story is going to get there anyway, maybe we should say something."

The Daily Herald in Provo has run a lead article on the front page covering this controversy. The Deseret News in Salt Lake City ran a story and The Tribune covered it in the sports section. Computer bulletin boards, dedicated to BYU sports, have played host to a lot of criticism. Next month meetings will be held with BYU President Merrill J. Bateman, vice presidents Fred Skousen and Alton Wade along with athletic director Val Hale to discuss the problem.

Steve Baker, who directs the Honor Code Office, said, "I can kind of see it from both perspectives." "On one hand, if you say absolutely nothing, sometimes rumors can be perpetuated and maybe even printed. That makes me a little leery. On the other hand, if the university says anything, then the people involved, it makes them feel uncomfortable."

President Bateman seems to favor keeping quiet until action has been taken. "What really hurts," he said, "is when an athlete makes a mistake and it gets plastered all over the front page. Our belief is that the student should have the right to work out his problems with a little privacy."

"It gives so little time to resolve (Honor Code investigations) in a particular way," Bateman said, "and that puts the university in a position of having to deal with it one way or another right away."


05/15/1999 - anon
While at BYU, I became involved in a relationship with a very good friend of mine who wasn't a student. Her roommate caught us at her apartment having sex, and turned me into the BYU standards department. Oh, did I mention one small fact...we were both female?!

The next thing I knew, I was being called in for a conference by my Student Ward Bishop. I was panic stricken and just knew I was going to be kicked out of BYU and then somehow I would have to tell my non-member parents back in Oklahoma that I was kicked out of school because I was a homo. Double Jeopardy!

Well as it happened, the Bishop got me into his office and asked me all these questions (not too personal, he was very proper about it) about "this problem" I had, and then stated that it was "mutual masturbation" and that it happens more often than I knew at BYU to women just like myself and that it was not really a problem as long as I repented and didn't do it anymore. Of course I lied and told him that I wasn't doing it anymore.

Most of the time I could hardly wait to get home from my conferences with the Bishop so my friend and I could have "mutual Masturbation" but, I still had to meet with him weekly until the end of the school year. Each time I fully expected him to use his spiritual discernment that we've all been told that bishops have, and say to me that I was a big fat liar and to stop lying to him. That, of course, never happened.

I went back home for Spring/Summer break, and during that time, I got a letter from him stating that I was "cured" if I read "the Miracle of Forgiveness" by Spencer W. Kimball. Well, I at least bought the book. The next fall, my friend and I moved in together and continued our "mutual masturbation" full time until I graduated from BYU in 1982, and for a number of years long distance afterwards.

Of course we weren't lesbians! We were just girls who knew how to have fun! Thanks to the positive feedback I received at BYU, I have sought after women from that time forward and have been happily queer ever since!


05/05/1999 - anon
During my freshman year at BYU a good friend who I lived in the dorm with got his girlfriend (the RS pres in the student ward) pregnant. Prior to knowing she was pregnant the couple confessed their sin to the bishop. All was forgiven, the slap on the hand and off they went. When she discovered she was pregnant my friend (understandably) freaked out. He confided in two friends (also in the student ward) as he deliberated about his options. The bishop,(taught in the English department) went into panic mode. He held court on my friend and drilled him about who he'd told about this incident. Court was tabled to give the good bishop time to debrief with the people who knew what happened. He wanted to know what we knew, what we were going to do with that information and what we would do if the student were allowed to stay at the Y. It was such an ugly damage control scenario. Once bishop *** was sure we weren't going to cause any trouble he put the guy on probation and life went on. Funny when the fornication was confessed no action was taken, but when a pregnancy was involved action was taken. Shouldn't the HG have told Bishop *** that she was pregnant when they confessed? Maybe in future interviews he should force the girl to take a EPT before he decides what to do.


04/20/199 - Galadriel
The non-admission policy of BYU for exmormons. Can you imagine Notre Dame turning down someone's admission strictly because they used to be catholic and now were atheist? Would Notre Dame even have access to the sorts of detailed records that could trace if you once were catholic and left? Or even care if they did?


04/19/1999 - anon
The fact that BYU does NOT admit "ex"mormons is one instance of the true colors of mormonism shining through. Supposedly mormons can accept other people's religious beliefs and be tolerant. Not so. If you are an "ex"mormon you are too ???wicked??? to attend BYU. Suppose I am a believing Presbyterian (a "christian", just like the mormons). I cannot go to BYU if I was once a mormon.You are tolerated, even admitted to BYU, if you have never been a mormon. (Potential convert). But if you were once a mormon and changed your mind BYU will not allow you admission.


04/12/1999 - anon
My best friend, a true believing Mormon, from a long line of the same, was at BYU on a football scholarship. He was "counseled" by LaVelle to not go on a mish. and the rationale was that as a football player he was serving the lord by the great missionary work done by the football program (I did once have a testimony of the truthfulness of the BYU cougars). Strangely enough those who would be hurt by being gone for two years (talent positions such as quarterbacks and receivers) were counseled to stay while those who would be helped by being older (linemen) were encouraged to go and serve.


04/11/1999 anon
Some bishops put people through hell for the heinous crime of masturbation, but I had one at a BYU singles ward who got up in sacrament meeting and said he didn't want to hear any more confessions of that nature. (You should have seen the look of relief go over the congregation!)


04/10/1999 anon
I think the funniest story I ever heard about wet dreams came from a friend of mine who recently retired as a BYU faculty member. He was divorced about 17 years ago, and never remarried. He went through many periods of depression, and finally confessed to his stake president that he masturbated a lot, and that he was depressed because he could not control his urges. The wise stake president simply said, "John, think of it as a wet dream while you are awake and just enjoy it!"


04/01/2000 - Shon
What alot of people dont realise is that about 2 or 3 years ago BYU almost lost their Accrediation to Teach Computer Science Classes because they were so behind the technology their Professors are very behind on what is "New Computer Technology" But I think BYU needs to get their Prioritys Straight, Buying 3 New Silicon Graphics inc. Super Computers at the little bill of $900,000. it is just shafting the students, Example
My best Freind got his CS Degree from BYU
And I got mine from USC in Los Angeles

My freind graduated 2 years ago, and he is still looking for someone to offer him more than 45,000 a year. he is working for a Computer Company's Technical Support

I graduated from USC in May, and within 3 weeks I started working for Microsoft in Southern California.


02/11/2000 - Alan
I just found this new website BYU Sucks. It's just new and getting started but it's pretty funny.


02/10/2000 - SwedenDC
It's a pretty lame site, although the pictures on the front are cute, but typical BYU.Non Committal Make Out

I think this whole thing is hilarious! This is the Mo version of "casual sex". Meeting for pleasure alone, only you just kiss, no actual intercourse. It is also very heterosexual. They are very gender specific, and the idea of two men or two women meeting is not even addressed.

The funny thing is that twenty years from now, some of these NCMO fans will be bishops and RS presidents, counseling their charges on the evils of casual intimacy.

Well, at least these zoobies are trying to have some fun!


01/29/2000 - Eugene England (quoted in Salt Lake Tribune 01/29/2000 page c3)
He taught at the University of Utah's LDS Institute of Religion for two years until 1977 when Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, now an apostle, helped him find a position at LDS Church-owned BYU.

"Teaching in any way critical of Mormon culture was read as a criticism of the Mormon religion, even though there's a sharp distinction between the two that the prophets have always drawn," England said.

It became clear that the administration and much of the faculty would accept only a "positive, orthodox" approach to Mormon literature and culture, and anyone who introduced any other ideas was seen as suspect, even evil. Students and faculty became theological vigilantes, running to the administration with any hint of a difference.

"I could tell other faculty began to see me as an evil rather than liberating influence," England said. The environment became so intolerable that he retired in 1998, falling into a sort of depression at the rejection of his life's work. The offer to introduce his approach to Mormon literature at UVSC was like a lifeline, rejuvenating him. He is once again engaging students in a serious exploration of faith and culture

12/20/1999 - Randy J
According to, "No Man Knows my History" is the number 5 best seller at the U of U!! Seems that something is going on at the "Y" as well, their number 6 is a book on the development of critical thinking skills. The apostasy is coming.


12/20/1999 - James
another gag is also the fact that place No. 7 at BYU is held by the book "The Act of Marriage : The Beauty of Sexual Love." If you read the amazon comments you get a good idea about it: Sex the Christian way.

Added to that place No. 9 "Saving Your Marriage Before It Starts : Seven Questions to Ask Before (And After You Marry)" Fits well. Would one expect such "bestsellers" with "normal" students across the world. What have the folks got on their minds?

I think BTW that the above No 6. is quite a mind-boggler for some BYU students: "Asking the Right Questions : A Guide to Critical Thinking."


12/16/1999 - Cyber Bear from Exmo BBS
When I was at BYU in the late 80's, my fiance and I were required (by our bishop) to take a sex-education course BEFORE he would sign our temple recommends.

This course was designed to teach young, inexperienced, clueless couples how to do it, basically. (We had already DONE it-- guess we could have taught the class.)

Anyway, it was truly amusing. The other couples in there looked like they were taking it so seriously. Some were even taking notes! (I'm not kidding.) I was very surprised at the graphic nature of the course-- actual illustrations and everything-- and the instructor even mentioned the "clitoris"! He cautioned the young men not to proceed with "coitus" on the honeymoon night until that "clitoris" had been stroked for at least 15 minutes. I was laughing so hard, trying to subdue it by covering my mouth, pretending I was coughing.


12/10/1999 - Sweden
At one point, we proposed making religion classes pass/fail, since many students complained that they were being graded on their testimonies, rather than their scholarship. We interviewed students and religion faculty. The Religion dean got wind of this, told the GAs, who told us that we were not allowed to discuss this. Some faculty were disciplined, including Ed Pinegar, former MTC Pres., who was suspended for helping us. We were told that if we brought this up again, we would be kicked off the SAC.

In the upcoming elections, the Religion Dean was made head of the nominations committee. They could select any number of candidates for Pres. Five students applied, including the SAC Pres (who was a BYUSA VP). Four selected, all except for the SAC Pres. He was told that they only wanted four candidates, even though they had had six the year before. He was the only one not selected over those two years. We started a write in campaign for him, and garnered over 500 votes, which were officially listed as disqualified votes.

I began disgusted and submitted a proposal that since BYUSA claimed not to be a student government (although they governed student activity. Really, they just weren't a representative government), we should change the name to BYU Student Service Representatives. I said that the new name was more reflective of its purpose. It actually gained some support during the debate until someone caught on and realized that the intials were BYUSSR. I got a good laugh out of that one, but was chastised by the Dean of Student Life for mocking BYUSA.

I really could not believe that I was a good, conservative Republican and yet BYU made me feel like such a subversive. I could not understand why they were so afraid of student democracy, and why they had to be so paternalistic and heavy handed. Especially when I was on the Student Senate at George Washing U. and saw how much power and freedom and how representative student government was. Many more students participated, and yet we didn't do anything radical or earthshattering. It was just nice to have a real venue for student concerns.

I believe that both my missionary and BYUSA experiences are pretty reflective of the Mormon mentality. You listen, obey and cooperate. You are appointed to positions by higher ups, not elected by the masses. You are there to implement, not innovate. It's correlation, not individualism that they want


12/06/1999 - Caperton
"Nearly 72 percent of the BYU faculty received at least one degree from the institution, an uncommon homogeneity among academic institutions. "There is no other university we surveyed that had anywhere close to that percentage of faculty represented by the sponsoring institution," Lyon said. "There is really no other major research university that provides a case for comparison." "

I had a buddy get his PhD from Penn State and I asked if he was going to stay there and teach. He said that major universities like their PhDs to "go forth" into the world and prosper -- that this was also good PR for the school; exposure through infiltration of other programs. BYU sounds like a giant in-bred family. And we know where that leads ... "squeal like a pig." 12/03/1999 caperton


12/05/1999 - BYU Biology Professor, Sam Rushforth
"The new survey report seems to indicate that most BYU faculty members agree that academic freedom at BYU is limited: What is surprising is that the large majority...are comfortable with the limitations." (quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune 12/05/1999 page C1)


11/22/1999 - Gordon
I was dismayed by the use of academic class time for teaching lds doctrine. I graduated in 1990 and the profs were under extreme pressure to incorporate the "gospel" into all subjects. My InfoMgmnt320 teacher (Dr. Stoddard) spent near an hour going over physical evidences for the Book of Mormon and made no attempt to even link to the course topic - advanced writing. This was the worst example I remember but hardly the only one. Fortunately I graduated before I vomited as the atmosphere (thank you Boyd KKK) continued to deteriorate (i.e. numerous academic freedom issues in the 1990's).

I saw the trend towards increased "gospel" discussion in class increase dramatically from my first term in 1986 to my graduation in 1990. I had several instructors confide that there was increased pressure on them to involve the gospel somehow in their classes if they wanted to get continuing status. This pressure may not have been present in all departments as I suspect the attitude of each Dean would make a difference.

Perhaps I was just sensitized to this kind of issue more after the debates in 88 and 89 surrounding Continuing Ecclesiastical Endorsement and after the Boydster made his comments about pre-Adamites not being a topic for debate. The climate seemed a lot more chilly than the one I remember in 1986 and 87. I still am wondering if Boyd was upset at all the negative publicity from the "riot"


11/22/1999 - Jason
I was a computer science major who was subjected to singing hymns before many an advanced calculus class...
This is typical of a few such strange things I encountered during my BYU experience.


11/18/1999 - Barbara
I was an art major at BYU in the 60's, and I will never forget the edict that came from the first pres. that ALL lds artists should ONLY produce works of art that glorified the church and promoted it to the world. I was young and eager to be a faithful member then, but when I heard that, I thought it was wrong, wrong, wrong. I feel sorry for those saps who are doing that now--even if they are getting rich doing it. To have boundaries imposed on one's creative expression has to suck!


10/26/1999 - anon
When I was on the BYU faculty, I was concerned with giving my students the best education possible and NEVER tried to make my teachings agree with official church teachings. I was in biochemistry and molecular biology and cancer research. I did not have to try to avoid conflicts, because I just taught what I would have at any university. I even brought in issues of evolution strongly in my genetics classes, because I was teaching science, not seminary.


10/08/1999 - Brigham Young Magazine - Fall 1999 - page 2 "letters"
"I fear a little for your publication. Do you see yourselves as the eyes and ears of grads who crave the campus news, or is Brigham Young Magazine simply another cog in the Church's PR juggernaut? The fact is we're no longer students. We understand that everything's not always going to be terrific. When there are disappointments, please just tell us what happened and why. We promise to keep donating. Don't feel as though you have to be the academic version of the Church News." Cedar Rapids, Iowa

10/03/1999 - anon
On the weekend I had a visit from a professor from BYU. He has grown quite cynical about the church but still attends and hasn't lost all hope it is true. He teaches a class on Sundays in his ward but I would call him anything but committed. He and his wife have a gay son. The church has caused them a lot of anguish due to their son and they have a lot of emotional wounds. They know, as most scientists do, that homosexual tendencies are under strong genetic influence. It was clear from the age of 4 or 5 that their son was gay. I really feel sorry for him and would really love to know how many others at BYU have serious doubts. The church relies on these people to maintain the front that the church is respectable in academic circles.

He did mention that he was passionately opposed to the Morg's involvement in the Knight Initiative. I am pretty sure that his wife will stop paying tithing if they continue to press the Morg line.

Afterwards I realized why he my BYU professor friend stay in the church. THEY DON'T STAY IN IT BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS TRUE. THEY STAY IN IT BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW IT IS FALSE.


10/02/1999 - Sweden
When I was at BYU, I had a religion professor who used the "touchy-feely" approach all the time. One day, after a test, a student challenged him on an answer which had been misgraded. The professor got really nasty, and then yelled at him across the room. I felt pretty creepy about it. I would have disproved of any professor acting that way, but for a religion professor to blow his top seemed a bit of line.

Turned in for having a Jewish prayer book at BYU

08/31/1999 - anon (see You better believe people at BYU are being denied free speech (although BYU can say we signed away our First Amendment rights when we signed the Honor Code). I was a student at BYU for 1 and a half years. First of all; I have never seen a university with less trust of its students. At BYU the Testing Center is like going to jail--they're convinced everyone is going to cheat. At other universities you are given the benefit of the doubt. Your language is restricted (no swearing, lewd references (including discussing homosexuality [except maybe damning homosexuals to Outer D Darkness]). There are supposed to be programs at their computer centers monitoring people's typing for words like "sex" and "hell", etc. I always wanted to write about Dante's Inferno or Freud's thoughts on sex and see how long it took the BYU police to come (I never had the guts though). I was turned in for having a Siddur (Jewish prayer book) in my dorm room. It is a Gestapo environment with very little freedoms. They always talk at BYU how they have the most freedom in the world; but what they don't realize is that at other universities people are free to discuss all religions (including Mormonism)--at BYU if you disagree with the Church you're in big trouble.


08/10/1999 - KJL
Reading "BYU Bruhaha's" brought back some fun and some not-so-fun memories of BYU. I am told that humor is tragedy with time attached to it. This is just a part of my BYU story.

I attended BYU and actually made it through about 5 semesters (2 1/2 years), though not consecutively. My freshman year (first 2 semesters) was fun. It was was also an eye-opener! I had grown up in a large, strong and active ward on the east coast. Everyone always seemed ready and able to help anyone in the Ward requiring assistance. Years later I realized that growing up in the east gave me a bit of a liberal streak that was not warmly embraced in Provo.

My first surprise came early that first semester. I was working weekends (yes, Sunday too) at the BYU McDonald Health Center. One evening a member of the Elders' Quorum Presidency dropped by to "give" me my home teaching assignment. I had never actually liked home teaching even in my home Ward, so I said something stupid like, "I don't remember volunteering for an assignment." I really do not think I said it sarcastically or mean, but without a pause he replied, "you volunteered when you became an Elder. If you don't want to home teach you can always come to Bishop's Court." Well, I can tell you I was duly "impressed" with his vast knowledge of the Gospel, immediately and happily "accepted" my assignment and actually did some occassional home teaching that year.

(Do you think that just maybe he had heard this before from other Freshman? He appeared to have experience with his reply!)

After a short "vacation" of two years in an Asian mission riding Chinese-built single-speed bicycles, then another 1/2 year working to put something in the bank for tuition and fees, I dutifully returned to BYU to find that tuition had taken a steep hike! Never-the-less, I did return and fulfill my religious duties of finding a wife, but NOT within the first 6 months (directions from my mission president). Marry and continue school on a shoestring budget ($12 per week for groceries for the two of us). All the while tuition kept going up. In fact tuition and fees went up in excess of 45% during my time at BYU. Talk about the Mormon Profit!! All of this led up to my next big surprise.

Entering into my last semester, I was now married, working part time in the Mechanical Engineering Department machine shop and faithfully doing my home teaching. My wife was dutifully doing her good and faithful duties by working at McDonalds flipping hamburgers after completing her college education at the University of Utah (maybe that was why no one in Provo would hire her, with a college degree from the "wrong" university), and of course becoming pregnant with our first child. We immediately found out that pregnancy did NOT agree with her, causing severe nausea for about 8 of the 9 months. Consequently she lost her job at McDonalds. BYU, on the other hand, gave me a nice raise at the machine shop going into that last semester, then promptly cut my hours in half! (There's that Mormon Profit again!) I was too far into the semester to withdraw, and there was just enough money left in the bank to either put food on the table, or a roof over our heads, but not both. And this was figuring in all my "paychecks" that I would get for the remainder of the semester, and even the PELL grant that I had from the government (that's a dirty word, too!).

Based on past experience from my home Ward, this was a good time to go see the Bishop for some counseling and help. I remember his answer well. "The Church is NOT a "lending institution" for students! Go talk to your families and ask them for money." (We had already done this, and neither family was in a good financial standing. Since we had become our own family, we were trying to take care of ourselves. We had definitely run into an obstacle and needed some good advice and help to solve it. This was why we were in the Bishop's office in the first place!). The Bishop continued, "if your families can't help you, then go get a loan at the bank." (Whatever happened to "get out of debt?")

The next day with absolutely no credit or assets to our names, I took our beloved Bishop's inspired advice and went to see the loan officer at the BYU Federal Credit Union. I explained that I had money for food or rent, but not both. I had a good job lined up for the summer and figured I could finish the semester with a loan of only $400. The good Sister Loan Officer then suggested I first go visit with our Bishop and ask him for some assistance. I patiently explained that was what we had done the day before, and were told to get a loan. Her jaw nearly bounced off the desk top.

Without another word, Sister Loan Officer went away and came back with a bank draft for $400, stipulating I had to pay it back in full before applying for another loan. No problem. I returned to our apartment, finished filling out the transfer application to The University of Texas at Austin, Mechanical Engineering Department, and mailed it. I was promptly accepted and by the end of April we hitched up the oxen to the Conestoga (loaded up our '79 GMC 1/2-ton pickup), and headed east and south out of Happy Valley for good!

The University of Texas, from which I received my degree and to which I donate money as an alumnus, turned out to be a great deal larger than BYU, much more liberal, and had a great stone structure of a Student Union near the center of campus. One day while exploring the recesses of this ancient building I was delighted to discover a very popular room with what had to be a 100-foot bar complete with mirror behind it's entire length and with about a zillion liquor bottles! No, I didn't "dive in," but I knew I had found a home! And while money remained tight, my Financial Aid Officer always made sure we found and earned sufficient to remain in school through to graduation.


08/04/1999 - anon
I got a call from the honor code at BYU when I was reported by some guys on my dorm floor (i assume) because I was reading "anti-mormon" material and preaching "anti-mormon doctrine" (which I wasn't, I was merely bringing some controversial doctrine to light). When I got to the honor code office, the advisor, his last name was *****, told me that my violation was a serious offense, BUT it didn't mean that I would NECESSARILY be thrown out of school. He then went on and said that he had heard that I was hanging out with a "bad group" of kids, (i assume my roommate told the H.C. this) and he thought that they were probably steering me in my "wayward" direction. He wanted names of my friends (many of whom are now on missions, and were never "bad" kids). I refused to tell him any names because 1) I hated the H.C. policy, and 2) I knew that many of my friends were planning on missions, and I knew that the H.C. could single-handedly ruin these plans. I wasn't planning on staying at BYU anyway, so I decided it would be best to take a suspension. BYU gladly handed me one. I decided that it's better to maintain a sense of dignity, integrity, and honor, then to give in to the BYU standards of two-facedness and ratting out friends (BUT, remember, it's all done in the name of the lord, though, so it's ok!).


I'm an active LDS who never went to BYU, but my wife went to BYU and confirms that it's pretty Orwellian there. Snitching for trivial reasons is absolutely encouraged. Yet she enjoyed her time there so I don't think it's quite as bad as some make out. - 10/08/2010 - wat


I lived in Eastern Oregon for over five years and have never encountered a group of people as kind, loving, and as completely screwed-up as Mormons - and I grew up in the fundie-Christian bible belt deep deep South. Reading this site helps me understand some of the stuff I saw out there. Legalism is crazy, y'all. Really. - 02/26/2010 - satori


As a Grad Student at a Large State University and applying for a PhD, I take great interest in how different school construct their programs. Not all area created equal. With two Brother-in-Laws at BYU Idaho (BYU fer kids who dunt read good) I've reviewed all their engineering curriculum. My conclusion - it's a joke. Very Watered down. I don't think those kids would last long in a competitive academic environment. Sean said it correctly above, what BYU-I kids study as Capstone or senior classes, most respectable engineering programs do as Sophomores.

Engineering programs are tough to build, it takes a lot of respectable programs across the university to support one (like a strong Math department, an extensive computer science/programming curriculum, extended physics and chemistry laboratories, manufacturing facilities for Mechanical/Industrial engineers, strength labs, technical writing capabilities in the English department, robotics labs, machine shop for materials science, it goes on and on. Engineering is like a Medical School, you don't just 'start' a new program.

I nearly rolled into tears laughing after listening to the Bro-in-laws whine about how hard it is and how 'blessed' they are for following their inspired leaders and not studying on Sunday. I'm sorry, but when you take 'Engineering math 2' (watered down calculus) as an advanced course when most universities require 3 semesters of calc, Differential equations, and matrix theory as prerequisites for anything serious.

BYU-Idaho: the one University in this country where you can take 4 years of Religion classes, business classes, and a few entry-level engineering courses and somehow get a diploma.

BYU Probo is respectable, but As far as I'm concerned, BYU-Idaho is Still 'Ricks'. - 01/29/2010 - Smithy-D


Everyone who writes on here clearly feels bad about leaving the church, because it is the true church, and so you all just say stories that to be honest... probably are not even true or at least not all all way true. that make you feel better but they are just lame excuses for leaving the church. - 11/10/2009 - anon


Reading some of these comments really opened my eyes to how stupid some people can be. If you didn't like BYU then get over it and don't go. It's that easy. I never even went to BYU but just hearing all this makes me laugh at how stupid you all are. So someone picked on you, grab a tissue, cry about it, then throw it away and shut up. - 10/28/2009 - blah


Wow. I'm astonished. All of you people who hated their time at BYU for one reason or another, like Brad stated, GET A GRIP! You enter this school knowing thats how it is(dress code, school rules, etc) so why complain after like you had no idea. Stop trying to destroy the the view of others because you messed up in one way or another or because you got offended by something someone said or did. Take it as it is and move on. We arent perfect but yet either are you. - 09/15/2009 - AstonishedAl


Dear friends,

It makes me laugh to hear so much criticism of the church, its policies, and BYU. Do you know why? Because they are all false. I hear so much flack on the church for our policies on homosexuality and other things. Why not take out the Baptist church, or the Presbyterians, or the Sikhs, or the Amish or the Shi'ites or even the orthodox jews? They all live their lives as best as they can, and they do not hear one word about it. When was the last time that you heard about a baptist controversy? Now, I don't mean to rant on these groups. Quite the contrary, I think that all of these religious sects are very good people. I also know that none of you can say ANYTHING about the church that could be negative and real. Most of what you say are lies. Outright lies. Some of you were excommunicated, not because of an unfair judgment, but because you were homosexual or abused drugs or pornography, or did something that the church said NOT to do and refused to repent even when asked. The rest are not Mormons.

It is like a christian making fun of an atheist. You hate it, I hate the opposite.

Many of you people are the hypocrites in every sense. Now, I do not mean to yell. I understand that many of you had bad experienced, and others just don't understand. I ask, whose fault that was. You scream for justice, but justice was given to you, and you spat at it. You scream for equal rights and equal treatment, so give it. You say "You people are prejudiced". That statement makes me laugh! Are we? We try to help you, and what happens? You slam doors in our faces.

As for BYU, there is a reason that we who love the church call it the Lord's University. All of the sections of BYU teach everyone how to be good people. We do not reject entry on anything but your grades. Do not say that the church is not true because you prayed and did not get accepted to BYU. Where were your grades? It is harder to get into BYU than Stanford. You need about a 30 on the ACT and a 3.7 GPA, and that is to get in. A 4.0 is required for any kind of scholarship.

You told me what you saw, to quote the scriptures, through a glass darkly. Let me tell you what I see each day. I see happy people content with who they are. The world teaches you that you must be 100 lbs and have perfect features to be popular. These people walk down the street with a happy gleam in their eyes, singing to themselves the songs of Zion, knowing that they are loved by God, despite what the anorexia loving media has to say. They say that a girl is only able to be loved for her body, and thus must show it off in every possible way. At BYU, I see very few girls who care one iota what these magazines and such have to say. They wear perfectly descent clothes, not "pioneer dresses", mind you, but conservative clothing that makes a man look her in the eyes.

In no way do I mean to slam other places of learning. Many of them produce great men and women. However, here at BYU I see the greatest of all. The people here do not graduate to show how smart they are or to strike rich, as some, (but not all) do at other places. Men graduate to support their families. Many of them have children, legitimate children with their legitimate wives here on campus. There is as much sexual activity here at BYU, for those who claim that we are against love, but almost all of it is within marriage. Homosexuality is not present. I am not trying to say that homosexuals are evil, but rather the practice. Gone is the omnipresent yelling of the gay crowd that they are being mistreated, when instead what they are doing is demanding special privileges from a torn government.

Here we don't have the fraternities and sororities that convince the unpopular that they never will be loved. Here we don't have the fraternities and sororities that cause massive rampages of drunken assaults. Here we don't have the drunkenness, or even the drug abuse. Claim what you will. My roommate and I leave our medicines out and our door unlocked, because we trust people. We don't have fear that people will steal any of our things or take our prescribed pills. We don't have to fear that we will log onto the internet and accidentally see the rampant pornography that tears marriages apart and turns men into broken shells. Say what you want about it "not being that bad." I hope that enough of you are still human beings to realize that "not that bad" is already over the line.

As for the staff, I have seen nothing but good, honest men and women. The police force are nice, and they do not trample on people. They do their best to keep the honor code in check and are kind enough to give people warnings. The teachers are some of the best ever. They are kind and respectful and start classes with prayer, which you may call fascist, but I love, being from a place in which you can not even pray before lunch at school. Students are not required to participate, however, in order to change the class from boring to special. Even math classes make you feel happy when you leave. The proverbial grunts smile as they labor. The students get along well with the teachers, and have no problem talking to them for advice.

The school does regulate certain things, movies and such. However, we, the upstanding members of the church do not even notice. Only those already living on the edge are the only ones who feel constrained. The less conservative a person, the more that they like to scare themselves out of their minds with terrible movies of gore that make people violent, the more they are willing to break the laws of the land, the more they are willing to destroy their bodies and minds with illegal substances and pornographic trash, the harder it is. Now that I phrase it as such, why would you willingly subject yourself to that? These are not the chains of BYU, but rather the guidelines by which all of the students live, and want to live. We have no desire to cross the line and we are perfectly happy to consign ourselves to these lives. Mormons are less likely than any other religious group to be in jail or to commit suicide. That should be more than enough reason for why we are happy to be us.

I go to church on Sunday, I avoid alcohol and drugs, I avoid immorality and the likes, and I am proud of it. Call me an arrogant puppet if you want, but the only arrogance I see is the world claiming that we are doing it for show, and the only puppets are these fine young men and women who let God pull their strings. I would not have it any other way.

I come from a bad part of society. The people there do not smile. They do not say "good morning" to you as you pass by. They do not help you to pick up your books when you trip, or care about your feelings when something hurts them. They do not allow the talk of religion, because it scares them. Nobody comes to sit by the loner at lunch, or to keep the lonely company. Nobody even helps when somebody gets into a car wreck. Nobody cares. Here, everyone does. It is not some preconditioned response. It is all natural from the hearts of good men and women.

I care about the readers of these articles. I hope that nobody develops their own bad impression because of a few prejudiced remarks. Please, accept my apology for them and learn that we are not these spies that these bigots make us out to be. Take my word, as an elder in the church, a BYU student, a member of the society and a patriot. There is nothing to hate, nothing to fear. Sure, we are human and have our various problems. Sure, we are not all perfect, but I will guarantee to you that you will almost never find a group trying to be closer to perfect than the students here. I bear to you my solemn witness on that matter. Please, drop your hatreds. Please, learn to understand us. We want nothing more than to live our lives our way. - 09/09/2009 - the truth


Ah! The Lord's University! My wife & I met while she was a Student at BYU Idaho. I always teased her because it was "BYU For kids that don't read good' and I believe that. She was pressured by 2 Generations of family that if you want to go to the celestial Kingdom, then you need to go To BYU. It's the Lord's University, right? Suffice it to say, I was up there working for an engineering firm, and when we both found out we were from the same state and area we hit it off. Hooking up was a great excuse to get the hell out of there and back home. Even to this day, some of our condescending brother/sister-in-laws make the comment about how the Prophets & Apostles set up BYU to perfect the leadership of the church and blah blah blah.

Ready for a good Story? So, we meet up, date for almost 8 months and then begin our engagement. That's slow for Mormons, if you don't know. When we announced our engagement, we were called in to her Branch President. I went more out of courtesy than anything. We kept ourselves 'clean' before our wedding, (no sex, but pretty much everything short of that), but what he told us next absolutely shocked us. He went through, item by item, and defined "appropriate post-marriage Sexual Acts" and "Inappropriate Acts." Who know that you could break the law of Chastity AFTER your married WITH your partner!! Son of a bitch. Here is a list of her BYU Branch Prez's Do's and Don't of Martial play.


a. Oral Sex. Big No-no. Do not pass go, do not collect $200, Straight to Hell.

b. Extended Foreplay. Need to get to baby-makin!

c. Dirty Talk or talk about sex what-so-ever.

d. Creative positions. Missionary is the "Lord's Position"

e. Consentual Bondage

f. Anal Sex is the same as Homosexual behavior

g. Using your hands for mutual Stimulation.

h. Using 'toys' of any kind.

The list goes on. I sat there absolutly shocked at what I was being told. How dare they, or ANYONE, ask about what my wife & I do behind closed doors. I sat there silent and after he finished his list, I told him that the discussion was inappropriate and we walked out.

Who knows, maybe this will be the next honor code installment? We got out of I-DUH-ho and my wife is finishing her degree and I finished Grad school and now work as an Engineer. Not out of spite, but out of necessity I refuse to hire any intern/graduate from BYU Idaho's Engineering Program. What they study as Senior Graduate level material, any respectable State School (Or Even BYU Provo) studies as second year student. At BYUI, you CAN get a degree by taking 4 years of Gen Eds... = P - 08/18/2009 - Sean


byu is a private school you morons. if you dont like the rules dont go there. i dont even go there, but i realize if i have i sign a paper saying that ill follow those rules. dont like em, dont sign. come on people - 08/22/2009 - anon


BYU just got me a 36 on my MCAT and I have never felt more support to go to med school. I can literally go anywhere i want because of the professors at the Y. I love the mormon church and BYU. Life is all about your attitude and seriously you can find whatever you are looking for at whatever school you go to..give BYU a break for trying to encourage morals and virtue - 06/30/2009 - Brittany


Just admit it, BYU is a tough academic institution and a strict religious environment and you simply just couldn't live it. It's not like you didn't know what you were getting into when you signed the honor code. It's funny to hear Utah people talk about how non-diverse of a place BYU is. BYU students are 90% out of state, and 30% of BYU's student body represents minorities and international students...making it THE MOST DIVERSE STUDENT BODY IN THE WORLD. - 05/17/2009 - Jonathon


Ahh the good ol year (1979/80) of being at BYU. Growing up in the sticks of NM, it was a big change to move to Happy Valley. I enjoyed my time at the Y, I still remember the disciplinary council "suggesting" that only after my mission would I be welcome to continue my studies at the Y. So off to my bishop I went, I've had many bishops over the years, he was the first that I took an immediate dislike to. What reinforced the feeling is that I was all geared up to go confessing to masturbating at least twice a day, but before I could get the chance, he launched into this spiel about moral purity and then asked me point blank if I had ever masturbated. I was so put off by his aggressiveness that I lied and told him absolutely no (I later went to my home bishop and confessed, he told me not to worry about it, he used to have that same problem).

When I returned from my mish I transferred to Arizona State and never looked back. But to confess (yes I still masturbate, just not twice a day) I still enjoying going to the BYU basketball games when I go see the family over the Christmas holidays. - 03/07/2009 - Don


First i just wanna say lifes sux sometimes, no matter where you are and you can blame the place, the people, the world or whatever, but really its just cuz' sometimes lifes hard. thats how it is.

I titled my little comment here as i did beucase the majority of all these stories are about people who have been offended by some hater, or were exposed to a bunch of ignorant people and instead of finding the truth of what the Gospel of Jesus Christ actually teaches, they decided to base thier opinion on the haters and the ingnorant and just walk away.

There are alot of ignorant people in the church who think they know everything, there's alot of new people in the church who don't know everythign yet, there are alot of people who try really hard and slip up and look hypocrites, there's alot of actual hypocrits with all the wrong motives, the church like the world is full of every kind of person, but it's not about how others live it or don't it's about your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and you tryin' to do you best.

this is they way i see. my regards to all the people who's freinds bailed on the them cuz' they lef the church, (not what the gospel teaches) sorry to all the people who's igorant bishops told them to leave and never come back (not what the church teaches, the Lord said his hands are always strethced out)sorry to all the people whos, teachers, roomates, classmates, etc. did and said stupid things that they never should have.

regardless of others weaknesses i know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is true and the Lord has his church on the Earth today, and i'm greatful for it. - 11/28/2008 - Joe J. P.S. Hate because of haters, and stay ignorant because of the ignorant


All of these stories make me sad. I know that many of them are fabrications. Try to forgive the wrongs that my imperfect children commit. They will all have to face me at the end. My Son can heal you, if you let him. - 11/18/2008 - God


i have a problem here. i think that byu is just a place where people go to to have a place where they are encouraged to live with high standards. i have family who attended the y. they loved the atmosphere and are tremendously graeteful they had to live by standards, so they could serve missions, get married in the temple. All byu does is want to help you. anyone who speaks otherwise is ignorant and needs to learn that people make mistakes. we are all children of God and we were sent to earth to be tested and return to live with Him someday. Christ suffered for us, so that we may be forgiven of our sins- byu or wherever else. Everybody makes mistakes and that should be expected.Byu just is a place where living correctly is accepted, and for the most part, wanted. You do not have to go to byu, so don't be offended when they try to help you, because you need it, i need it, and they need it. hope i can change your mind. - 11/07/2008 - cougars


Its sooooo funny that so many people left the church becuase they were mad. or chose to be offended. Swallow your pride. The Gospel is true and this organization "Church" is true. I have been insulted many times at church. Buyt I am it going to let someone elses opinion or judgments to me make me leave. I know what I know to be true. If my bishop told me to suck his dick I would still come to church, just at a different ward. The church is perfect the people are not. Just come back to the church damit. - 11/06/2008 - shaniqua


On mormons who think they control behavior for others - 08/07/2006 - lightfingerlouie

I always felt it the most at BYU. It was a theocracy within a free state. What a strange anomaly.

BYU was full of control. Censored movies, Rodin's work banned, mandatory "religion" classes, regulated concerts, a dress code, an honor code, a private--and fascist--police force. Step out of line, and they would smash you like a bug.

I grew up among the anointed, the self-important rulers of BYU. I recall watching them work their controlling magic. They honestly thought they could force everyone to heaven. The thought of any real individual freedom horrified them. They were, in truth, almost robotic in their actions. It never dawned on them to ask themselves if something might be wrong.

What you wore was regulated. What you saw was regulated. What you ate and drank was regulated. Girls wore "pioneer dresses" on Sundays--one of the most pathetic things I have seen. Why not just put them behind a veil, and be done with it?

When the national anthem started each morning, the entire campus froze. People in bitter cold weather dutifully put hand over heart, and waited for the ceremony to end. Hey, I love my country, but there was something Orwellian about BYU patriotism.

There were jokes--"Free Agency, and How to Enforce It," by Ernie Wilkinson.

A picture of a kid laying on the ground, with severe injuries, and a caption which read "All I said was let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

There were some failed attempts at underground newspapers. Some were pretty good. All were attempts to comment on the regulated behavior.

Mormons and machines. So much in engineered common. "Dare to be different, just as long as you are all the same. "


My "crap detector" is absolutely pegged from many of the posts on this forum. I attended BYU and did not experience anything like what is on here. Get a grip people: BYU, BYU faculty, BYU students, Mormons, the LDS Church and its leadership are not perfect, and never claimed to be: if you thought they were, shame on you for not understanding that people are people; if you thought they weren't, then why are you carping? For any legitimate posters (not just real stories but legitimate injustices), sorry you had a tough time and I hope you recover.

For me, I had a great time with my friends (none of whom were "spies"), I found the faculty (in general) to be knowledgeable and truly concerned about students, and I will always be thankful for the experiences I had at BYU. Even my dad, who was excommunicated from the LDS Church 30 years ago (and has never rejoined) loves BYU and supports it to this day! - 05/07/2007 - Brad


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